What Is Money?

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re: Is The Euro A Proof Of Concept?

Post  Shelby on Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:33 pm

Brilliant:

http://goldwetrust.up-with.com/economics-f4/what-is-money-t44-15.htm#2198
(everyone should read the post at link above! Very insightful!)


I had many thoughts, which I am not ready to write down.

But you have just explained to me how to potentially beat their plans.

1. Sell digital certificates on the internet. Do NOT offer to redeem them. Do NOT suggest they are backed by anything.

2. Create a separate entity that offers to buy these certificates in gold and the fiat price of gold.

Jump to summary at end of this post.

Afaik, the money laundering laws of the nations can not deal with this, but the tax laws can because #1 and #2 corporations are a "controlled group". But if you put them in 2 different countries, and you are not a US citizen (because IRS taxes US citizens in any country, or if US citizen and never take any distributed profits), then tax has no jurisdiction.

But the big problem is that #1 is making a profit and a VAT transaction, on which it will have to pay taxes to the nation(s). Now you understand why the VAT is so important, because in theory the profit could be eliminated, by buying the certificates from the #2 entity. Or make a #3 entity that is in a tax haven jurisdiction, for example a non-USA citizen that resides permanently on a boat in international waters.

There is a way to hide the flow of money from #1 to #2 (even if through an intermediary #3 for tax reasons). Say you have high net worth individuals who want hold gold long-term, so they buy sell gold to #1 for cash and buy certificates from #2. #1 does not offer to redeem certificates, but instead it makes these certificates into corporate shares!!!

So very easy now:

#1 sells stock certificates to raise capital, which it then uses to buy gold. Tax problem solved. These certificates are always priced in price of gold, i.e. 1 certificate = 1 gold gram. Another company can do similarly for silver.

Now you do not need any #2 per se, these certificates can be bought or sold at eBay or any one who wants to buy and sell them. I believe this is entirely legal. There is no money laundering law or IRS rule that deals with selling stock certificates. There may be an SEC rule, but I bet it is possible to find a jurisdication that allows a company to sell it's shares on the open market. Actually I think it is okay in USA also, maybe just have to file some SEC form.

Okay so we know PTB will try to find a way to shut it down. If necessary, they will murder the operators of the businesses.

But the only attack point is a public corporation, where the assets of the corp do not belong to a person, but to the stockholders. So PTB can only attack in 2 ways:

a) Steal the gold literally with a heist.
b) Enact some national law about holding companies and precious metals (maybe there is already a law?).

As for redeeming the gold, periodically the corporation could buyback it's shares, payable in gold. Then the problem is the capital gains, if the IRS rules the tax is on the value of the gold in fiat. But remember that link I provided which shows that the Supreme Court ruled that contracts in gold are valued in gold:

http://www.kitco.com/ind/katz/nov022009.html

So then we do not need to have only one #1, we could form numerous corporations, and periodically these could buyback and terminate.

Now here is the kicker! The gold need never leave the stockholders' possession!! The corporation could have a contract with the stockholder to make them custodian of the their portion of the gold, that upon sale of the stock certificate, the equivalent gold must first be returned to the corporation's vault, else the contract must be signed by the buyer of the certificate. If the stockholder doesn't have the gold, he can't sell his certificates. So the certificates can be issued very easily with one click of mouse on internet. No transfer is needed until the certificates are sold. Everybody can hold their own gold, except the portion they want to be e-liquid. I was very close to this design with my P2P posts before, I was just missing the ability to bring into legality with the stock certificates concept.

Realize also that if the stockholder wants to, he can claim the gold was stolen, then his stockcertificates are worthless. No one losses! The corporation writes down the asset. This renders the IRS impotent! Brilliant!

How can the nations or the PTB stop this? The laws of corporations would have to change IN EVERY COUNTRY.

The benefit is our gold becomes liquid, because the certificates can become electronic and paper money.

========
ADD: the hitch in the USA at least, is that all public stock offerings have to be approved by the SEC and by each state where the securities will be sold:

http://thismatter.com/money/stocks/selling-new-securities.htm

But I have a solution for this, let each person create a separate sole proprietorship company for each grain of their gold and/or silver, and issue a digital certification that company was input in our database, with a click of a mouse. There is absolutely no law against this. We will not and can not put any limitation on what those companies can do.

#1 offers to be a registration agent for transfer of ownership of these companies, and the assets must be disclosed to us and we can disclose to the recipient. Let one stipulation of escrow contract be that the recipient has to click a button (or otherwise securely notify) stating they received all the assets of the company, or the assets must be transferred to #1. Now I need to search if there is any limiting law about registration agents or storage companies. I know there is something about precious metals and escrow in IRS rules on barter, but afaics, the escrow would NOT be a barter exchange:

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=187920,00.html

IRS.gov wrote:Bartering is the trading of one product or service for another.

But the agent #1, I described is not escrowing any trade of exchange of one thing for another. It is only acknowledging the transfer, and optionally also offering to store the assets for the recipient. Conclusion: the IRS has no jurisdiction! IRS has limited jurisdiction over storage (safety deposit box) when they file notice of levy or if the owner of the box contents dies.

I am reviewing all the research I did on this in past:

http://goldwetrust.up-with.com/precious-metals-f6/how-will-we-physically-trade-gold-silver-at-5000-500-t61-90.htm#824

The business:

* Provides money transfer services in any amount.

...

(d) Definitions.— For purposes of this section, the following definitions shall apply:
(1) Money transmitting business.— The term “money transmitting business” means any business other than the United States Postal Service which—
(A) provides check cashing, currency exchange, or money transmitting or remittance services, or issues or redeems money orders, travelers’ checks, and other similar instruments or any other person who engages as a business in the transmission of funds, including any person who engages as a business in an informal money transfer system or any network of people who engage as a business in facilitating the transfer of money domestically or internationally outside of the conventional financial institutions system;; [1]

...

(b) MONEY TRANSMITTING BUSINESS.—Section 5330(d)(1)(A) of
title 31, United States Code, is amended by inserting before the
semicolon the following: ‘‘or any other person who engages as a
business in the transmission of funds, including any person who
engages as a business in an informal money transfer system or
any network of people who engage as a business in facilitating
the transfer of money domestically or internationally outside of
the conventional financial institutions system;’’

When #1 is acting only as a registration agent, then it can't possibly be an agent of transfer (except for the transfer of the certification, which is not the assets of the company, thus should have no value other than it provides a standard mechanism for liquidity). I now see clearly why PTB needed 9/11/2001, it was because they needed to regulate percisely against the transfer of money.

If #1 acts as a storage entity for the assets of the company (gold or silver) and thus facilitates the transfer of them, then it can be argued that those assets are "money".

But being regulated as money service business is not really a big deal. You just need to prove that you have obtained sufficient identification from the sender and recipient. In fact, you will need to obtain this any way, so that you do not give someone's physical gold to the wrong person! So really the anti-money laundering laws are of no hindrance whatsoever!

==================
SUMMARY
==================


  • If you have gold and/or silver, and you want to instantly obtain digital certificates that you can trade, you simply click the mouse at website of #1. I no longer see the benefit to add the complication of making these grain-wise sole proprietorship's, unless there is some gold-banking specific regulations that would apply and could be avoided by encapsulating the metals as assets of a company and trading the companies.
  • You can trade these as you want, but #1 will note on the certificate whether it has received gold on storage backing these certificates.
  • If you store metal with #1, then you must provide identification (so your gold will be returned to you only!), which also fulfills the anti-money laundering laws. The benefit is that when you trade the certificates for these, the recipient won't have to physically get the metal from you.
  • #1 will record change of ownership of certificates when it is securely notified to do so by both former owner and recipient. If the metal is on storage at #1, then recipient must have been AML-compliantly identified (which makes it sure only he/she can get the metal).
  • The benefit of creating certificates for which the metal is not stored at #1, is that some people/merchants might accept them any way, and give you say 30 days or 90 days to complete your promise. It is like a Real Bill, in that it lets the financial system move faster (liquidity) without having to move the physical metal in small increments. For example, I could go spend say $1000 of my gold in 1 month, then send the metal off to #1 after I had spent it! Which means I do not care if #1 loses it! Merchants are accepting credit cards all the time that have chargebacks. You have in theory provided enough identity to #1 before you go spending these, that you won't want to get yourself in trouble with the law. The benefit is that interest rates get set privately not by a central bank.
  • The mistake of http://GoldMoney.com, is they try to restrict to 100% repudiation, instead of letting the free market of participants decide their own terms. Thus their funding and account creation is too big of barrier to popularity. Also GoldMoney.com only stores the metal in a few distant locations, and #1 could have numerous storage locations. I think GoldMoney is a red-herring planted by PTB. Turk worked in banking.
  • I have an efficient idea of how to do AML id, simply let someone get in front of their webcam for a minute and hold up their drivers license and record this. How can govt say they don't have id when they have video of someone when even Western Union offices do not require more? Can also offer the alternative option of Equifax credit match check (as GoldMoney.com does). Can also offer the option of letter of reference from your financial institution (bank). With video id, it becomes very easy to match up accounts that used the system to do fraud and be on the watchout for them in future-- no need for 666 id of universal tax id number!
  • The final complication is the fungibility and purity of different forms of the metals. Purity is just fraud, so it can be handled as per above, except that the fraud might not be noticed by #1 storage personel, then it could cause a public confidence problem. So assaying on incoming metal needs to be very sure. Fungibility is a problem with no real perfect solution. Since this metal won't be trading hands (the certificates will), I think 0.999 gold and silver grains (shot) is best. It is the hardest to hide fraud (other than maybe very thin 0.999 coins), it is the most divisible, easiest to assay (random grains), and it has the lowest premium. And there is no problem with accepting other forms, because #1 can trade this for grains at profit!

Shelby
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Plan B of the Giants?

Post  Shelby on Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:23 am

My hometown Saints are #1 team in NFL this year. I know the world is upside down now, as the Saints have been losers for decades. I see Lance Moore is one of the star players and he has same name, looks and probably size of a little one in my genetic fork, if ya know what I mean. Any way, there was an email exchange with a grandparent in my family:

Shelby wrote:That works well most of the time, but every 80 - 300 years or so, something nasty comes round, where one wishes he/she were dead, because one can't eat (have you tried it? I hate the feeling, especially if it drags out day after day after miserable months). But one just can't take his/her own life, so one learns about the misery of Dark ages, with plagues and massive hunger.

The plan of the Giants is really something. They are going to cooperate with allowing the Americans to push themselves right up to the edge if they can, to maximize the pain.

Then again, I suppose there is some hope that the world will suck through it together and share and share alike, so that the descent into F.U.B.A.R. is gradual enough (like slowly cooking a frog without a top on the pot). That is what the Giants want too. They hope they don't have to resort to plan B-- the microwave version (i.e. WW3). They will not be denied, if they feel they are losing control, they have their fingers on the nukes.

We will see...maybe still a couple of years out...

I am trying to do something about it.

P.S. If you are good at eating snakes and other swamp life, you can disappear into swamp when time comes, but I see most could not do that during the Katrina dry run. And you have to get deep in the swamp with the alligators, lest you will be disarmed and escorted to safe "holding" area (with your pets of course, thanks to Shannon Moore's efforts).

> Or perhaps in New Orleans they don't give a crap. Having been knocked to
> hell and back and knowing it will happen again, they stick with:
> While you're still alive, remember life's a party. Laizze bon temps
> roule, cher!
>
>
> Shelby Moore wrote:
>> At the Coliseum watching gladiators while Rome is burning. The analogy
>> is
>> very literal and real. People have no idea what is about to hit them.
>>
>>
>>>from my friend Adrienne in NOLA:
>>>
>>>
>>>It was a white knuckle game right down to the end.
>>>If they had lost we would be having a jazz funeral today with lots of
>>>mourning. Only two teams in the Country are unbeaten. Us and Peyton
>>>Manning's Indianapolis Colts.
>>>
>>>It's fun to see the City go nuts. The Quarter was crowded on Sunday.
>>>It's been beautiful weather.

Shelby
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re: Is The Euro A Proof Of Concept?

Post  Shelby on Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:05 am

Prior discussion:

http://goldwetrust.up-with.com/economics-f4/what-is-money-t44-15.htm#2210

After further thought, not only is it very clear that the Euro is a test model for purely transactional-transnational currency that can float with no implied backing (no gold reserves whatsoever), it is also clear that it is impossible to use for anything, an alternative (precious metals backed) currency that doesn't scale well, even though I did show at link above that it is technically possible to create a sparse scale currency within the law. The reason is a sparse adoption is useless as currency, because most of the things we pay for would still require us to convert to fiat. Sparse adoption of precious metals as a store of value (but not as a currency) is already accelerating, but this doesn't help while it is sparse. There have been some success with creating online currencies for online games (to buy game extras and some players in China work to earn these in the game then sell these to people who rather pay than play to earn them), which have been promptly made inconvertible to Yuan fiat in China.

So as this plays out, what are the risks of failure for the Giants, of the plan for supra-national, purely transactional (no backing) currencies?

I can see that food inflation is running probably 20 - 30% a year here in Mindanao. I suspect the reason is because the farmers get paid only a small % of the end retail price and much of the cost is the diesel to bring it to market. Food prices did moderate a bit when oil price got smashed in 2008, but the prices are back to all new highs by now. The official figures lie perhaps because if they only look at govt subsidized rice and gate prices at farms (I am not sure how they are calculating their lies, but these tables do not reflect reality):

http://www.census.gov.ph/data/sectordata/2009/cp090912r.htm
http://www.census.gov.ph/data/sectordata/datacpi.html

So we know that as long as the currencies float, then the national govts are going to abuse them, which is going to feed through to massive inflation in basic goods like food and energy (also because these are underpriced for any kind of sustainable growth that is propped up with more fiat debasement and more debt mis-allocation). Even if the problemmatic levels of debasement are predominantly in west (which is not true in all cases), these are irregardless, cascading as inflation in developing world, due to dollar pegs and in pricing of oil in dollars. So all over the world, savings and investment is being destroyed by the mis-allocation of accelerating debt basement which is a form of deflation, while raw goods are not nominal price deflating as much (inflation in a relative sense) or are even inflating in price. So this path squeezes the populace at large. The populace turns to the govt for subsidies, and the govt debases more. It is a whirlpool feedback loop to destruction.

When the public does realize they need to move to precious metals, then it is going to create the worst depression of all time. Because it will exponentially make everyone poor beyond your worst imagination. There is only about $1000 of precious metals in the world for each person on earth, and 95% of that won't come to market at less than a few multiples of the current price, and especially as the price goes exponentially, no one will want to sell. So in essense, you have 0.001% of the world's population holding 99.9% of the wealth. So of course what will happen is the govts will be forced to raise taxes to obscene levels (because the people holding the metals are not going to lend it nor invest it in this depressionary cyclone!) and of course then the govts will take 99% of any gold that tries to be spent or move across official channels and fiats.

The big problem is this feedback loop drives people to the govt, and the govt becomes the "decider" of how to grow food, how to take care of the hungry masses.

The only threat to the plan of the Giants is if the precious metals physical default comes too soon, this will cause the crash into the Greater Depression too soon, which will limit the extent of the initial dependence on the govts. If this was fast and severe enough, govts might not be able to keep up with the problem, and people might be forced to fend for themselves. This could cause a backlash against govt, and a massive increase in the use of physical silver for barter. I suspect the Giants would react to this failure, by creating World War 3, which is what they did the last time their New Deal control was failing.

Next time platinum moves down near the price of gold (as it did Dec 2008), buy 5 - 10 x 1oz coins as your "escape though any airport" money. They look like half-dollars, and have $100 stamped on them, and are not yellow color, so you should get through any checkpoint with ease. They are not liquid but for emergency escape capital only. I suppose gold chloride is a way to hide gold, but doubt you can bring it on an airplane.

http://tulving.com/goldbull.html

Very interest, note that as of today Pt, gold, Pd are 49% of theirs 1980s CPI adjusted highs, but silver is only 13%. Is this only because of Hunt bros, or is this indicative of the undervalued nature demonetized of silver which makes its (float, i.e. those in market to sell) marketcap tiny and vulnerable to an exponential increase?

You want to beat the Giants? Create a small society of 10,000 people who put all their savings in silver and who continue earning income and saving. They will become rich and the world will go into Great Depression sooner and be saved possibly from Giants plan (but may bring on WW3).

Shelby
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Working on Some Comments

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:22 am

Hi Shelby,

I am working on a reply to your post. I am not sure that it will be as devastating as you fear.

Cheers!

Guest
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re: potential to be not as devastiting

Post  Shelby on Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:20 am

angophera wrote:Hi Shelby,

I am working on a reply to your post. I am not sure that it will be as devastating as you fear.

Cheers!

India, China, Argentina (probably Brazil?) are all accumulating gold at their central banks. Russia I assume also. There could be a power shift, but also this power shift is not only from some countries to other ones, but also from individuals every where, to billionaires (Taipans) who work in pseudo-harmony with the Giants. Except in India and maybe Vietnam, the precious metals are not really being accumulate by the people en masse. I hear some in China buy precious metals, but I do not think that is more than 0.1 ounce per person on average (1 ounce would be 1 billion oz, and there isn't that much gold in world for sale). There is going to be a large transfer of wealth from the populace to the upper few % of the food chain.

Although the standard-of-living will rise for these people in developing world (because they are coming from such a low standard), instead of 90% of the gain going to them, they will get like 30% of the gain and the PTB will get the rest. The billionaires will get their portion.

The more that people resist their control by upper few %, the more devastating the near-term effects. If people cooperate with the new socialism, then it could be moderate slow cooking over the decades. But in the long run (decades), if the people do not resist this control, they are going to be 100% devasted. Well that is guaranteed already (read Revelations), we just don't know how long it will take.

One thing that is positive for developing world is that if the dollar devaluation against gold, will mean that the relative value of labor in developing world is higher, these people will be able to travel and buy exports from other countries. But it will also mean that many of them will be priced out of the current labor markets they are employed in.

The key is that economic activity in the developing world that is was sustaining the boomer bubble in the west, was mis-allocated capital and will bust. How quickly the economies can readjust to a revaluation of the sectors of the world economy depends in large part on how quickly the govts and central banks will get out of the way.

I understand the inflation I see in pesos in Philippines is because the pesos has been pegged to dollar lately (almost) and thus it can be seen as revaluation because the salaries of the people should also be increasing by the same rate. But seems the govt is lying about the CPI, and thus govt mandated minimum wage is not increasing as fast as the actual changes in prices.

===========
ADD: Warren Buffet's recent investment moves clearly say he is aware of the coming float (revaluation and loss of reserve status) of dollar against gold. He even sold $billions of insurance that the market indices would not decline below certain values in the long run. I have seen Buffet in a photo with Rothschild (one of the Giants).


Last edited by Shelby on Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total

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Comments on Some of your Comments

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:05 am

Hi Shelby,

Reading your most recent post I think we are not far apart in interpretation of events. These comments relate to your earlier post.

Shelby wrote:
"So as this plays out, what are the risks of failure for the Giants, of the plan for supra-national, purely transactional (no backing) currencies?"

Angophera writes:
I think the Euro proves to them that the risk is low. Also I don't think the currencies need to be "supra-national". Perhaps the Euro accomplishes other goals for the PTB such as consolidation of the "European Empire". For every currency except the USD it is transactional business as usual.

The only remaining scintilla of risk is that the people reject the Euro when they wake up one day and realise that their currency is not a store of value. I think this risk is vanishingly small and it would disappear completely as soon as they go to a store and find they can still buy things with it (it's still legal tender).

I just read FOFOA's latest post where he points out the numerous early hints and recent unequivocal statements by the ECB that gold is no longer money but it is an "important asset". Important? They list it in the number one spot on their balance sheet, it started as 15% of their assets and it is now 56% and from day one they marked gold to market every quarter.

FOFOA describes Freegold as creating a "meritocracy" for transactional currencies. If say, the Government issuer of a particular fiat currency stabilises or REDUCES the amount on issue its exchange value (AKA purchasing power) would rise relative to gold. Gold would, in effect, signal a need to adjust the exchange value between this fiat currency and other fiat currencies.

Q. Could the Giants' strategy also include putting a leash and muzzle on their spendthrift pet politicians (and regional bankers) so they cannot f*** up the monetary system through massively over-issuing their fiat currencies again?

If true, it would be an elegant twist! After all, is not THE fatal flaw of fiat the ability to over-issue it. A free market in gold could act as a discipline on fiat currency issuers ie. you can still steal but you have to do it very, very slowly and carefully.

We should consider this possible twist very carefully. If it is correct the real danger for all of us in non-USD zones is that the politicians will attempt to keep their spending party going through truly crushing tax and other burdens on their citizens. Not just gold holders.

Shelby wrote:
"Because it will exponentially make everyone poor beyond your worst imagination. There is only about $1000 of precious metals in the world for each person on earth, and 95% of that won't come to market at less than a few multiples of the current price, and especially as the price goes exponentially, no one will want to sell. So in essense, you have 0.001% of the world's population holding 99.9% of the wealth."

Angophera writes:
I don't believe that poverty across the board is going to be the result. Gold is just one form of real wealth. More on this below. If you are already poor and have few or no assets or savings your position would depend on your local currency. If your currency is artificially overvalued you would be in big trouble ie. risk a currency collapse. Sound like anyone you know?

How many rich countries have the power and can afford to manipulate their currency in defiance of the Forex market? I can only think of two - USA and China. Precisely zero poor countries can. In fact the poor countries' currencies could appreciate against some or all of the currencies of the rich ones under Freegold.

FOFOA implies that your experience of this event will depend on which fiat currency you are obliged to transact in. It will also depend on whether you hold your wealth in USD or USD denominated paper sets.

As mentioned above gold is just one form of real wealth. Perhaps we need to keep reminding ourselves that there is a hierarchy in "stores of value" in real "stuff" BUT the declining marginal utility of copper does not = no value at all. Gold may be supreme but it does not make a loaf of bread worthless.

There is a huge amount of evidence that various big money players are taking positions in agricultural land and other hard assets. In other words I think the calculation should be real stuff divided by citizens not just precious metals divided by citizens. You could replace the words "real stuff" with the words "real wealth" and that would INCLUDE a loaf of bread, a bakery, a flour mill and the grain silo full of wheat.

Under this "next generation" system (Fiat Currency V2.0 perhaps) gold doed not compete with currencies it values them relative to each other . It is a NEW "division of labour" in the monetary system that seems in some ways similar to other gold "standards" from history but it is not a direct copy, rather a new version of a gold standard. Maybe that is why it is a bit confusing to those of us who think we know a lot about PMs role in monetary systems.

FOFOA stresses that after Freegold hits gold would have a stable but permanently elevated purchasing power compared to ALL other stores of value including loaves of bread but variable over time in each currency. Gold can then provide the reliable savings vehicle it should always have been in any increment desired eg. "grains" as opposed to grams.

I agree with you, Shelby, that the developing countries have been/do get screwed but perhaps the Giants are only targeting the USA and their partners in crime in this plan.

Shelby wrote:
"The only threat to the plan of the Giants is if the precious metals physical default comes too soon,"

Angophera writes:
I think they have thought the possible outcomes through and they are prepared for contingencies. BTW how do we define "too soon" if they have already got their positions in place? Maybe they don't care when it happens just that it happens.

If FOFOA is right this has been a long time in planning and preparation. I supect that the execution of this plan has to date, despite any appearance to the contrary, been proceeding in line with their plan.

Cheers!

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quick reply on one point

Post  Shelby on Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:10 am

Note I added to the prior post since you read it:

http://goldwetrust.up-with.com/economics-f4/what-is-money-t44-15.htm#2221

I pointed out that inflation tax is eating away at wage earners in developing countries. Neverthess at least they have jobs now, so that is a step up from past.

angophera wrote:I just read FOFOA's latest post where he points out the numerous early hints and recent unequivocal statements by the ECB that gold is no longer money but it is an "important asset". Important? They list it in the number one spot on their balance sheet, it started as 15% of their assets and it is now 56% and from day one they marked gold to market every quarter.

Am I mistaken that there is no gold backing the Euro? The gold is only held by the member nations, not the Euro central bank. Or am I mistaken?

And for example, Germany does not have its gold. It was held for them by US Treasury, but we know that gold is likely gone.

The ECB has the correct lingo, but in fact the gold is probably mostly gone from European national central banks? Or am I mistaken?


Last edited by Shelby on Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total

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Some issues...

Post  Shelby on Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:29 am

You had some aspects of the theory correct, but I think you perhaps have gravely misunderstood the motivation of the Giants and the implication of what you discovered??? I say that not because I am sure, but because I am worried that maybe you know something I do not? Because afaics below, the prognosis is opposite of what you are expecting.

Remember what the Giants want is to never lose control of the ability to tax by inflation. Rothschild wrote, "let me control a nations currency and I care not who makes the laws". Never forget that. That is their key motivation and always will be.

And the Giants have no way to force a gold system throughout the world if they can't get all the countries back into a one currency that they have control over. Realize they do want to loan in gold (but with a paper proxy), because then via compounding of usury, all the gold will be aggregated with them in a few short decades (as Revelations predicts, they will be holed up on a mountain in Israel when the anti-christ comes to defeat them and give us the wonder of a currency-less system called 666, which I determined is blood system).

Tangent: I know what the 666 will be. It will be a system based on blood. You will pay and receive directly in your blood. I deduced this from the wavelength of red and biblical blue being the magic missing color from both gold and the end times. See Biblical thread for the scriptures.

angophera wrote:...The only remaining scintilla of risk is that the people reject the Euro when they wake up one day and realise that their currency is not a store of value. I think this risk is vanishingly small and it would disappear completely as soon as they go to a store and find they can still buy things with it (it's still legal tender)...

The risk is that ECB sets interest rates policy that member countries can not tolerate. Germany and Italy have very divergent cycles and needs regarding interest rate policy. The risk is that the nations are not yet synchronized enough to be placed in a monetary union.

angophera wrote:...I just read FOFOA's latest post where he points out the numerous early hints and recent unequivocal statements by the ECB that gold is no longer money but it is an "important asset". Important? They list it in the number one spot on their balance sheet, it started as 15% of their assets and it is now 56% and from day one they marked gold to market every quarter.

See my prior post. What is ratio of gold to total value of Euro M4? And how much of that gold is physically known to exist?

angophera wrote:...FOFOA describes Freegold as creating a "meritocracy" for transactional currencies. If say, the Government issuer of a particular fiat currency stabilises or REDUCES the amount on issue its exchange value (AKA purchasing power) would rise relative to gold. Gold would, in effect, signal a need to adjust the exchange value between this fiat currency and other fiat currencies...

The point is that the interest rate policies of all the nations would influence each other. For example, if USA has 0% interest rates, then it's currency gets hammered down, so then China's exports to USA decline drastically in Yuan value, thus causing a recession in China, which then drags the Yuan down, because China has to lower interest rates.

This is not a panacea, because each of the nations can still inflate their currencies to hell and that impacts the other nations. The largest economies will still have the most influence. So what this actually does is it forces countries to join blocs!!!!

KEY POINT: is that gold in individual hands is a free market, but gold and currency decisions centralized (even multiple centers), is not a free market. Because when people are placed in blocs, the lowest common denominator prevails. That is part and parcel of socialism. The system of competing floating currency blocs is socialism!

angophera wrote:...Q. Could the Giants' strategy also include putting a leash and muzzle on their spendthrift pet politicians (and regional bankers) so they cannot f*** up the monetary system through massively over-issuing their fiat currencies again?

No it is exactly the opposite! The giants want blocs, and then a single currency, so that they have complete control. And the best way to do that, is let the nations compete to devalue their currencies!

angophera wrote:...If true, it would be an elegant twist! After all, is not THE fatal flaw of fiat the ability to over-issue it. A free market in gold could act as a discipline on fiat currency issuers ie. you can still steal but you have to do it very, very slowly and carefully.

I do not see that flaw being fixed until after all the nations have joined into one currency with no gold backing, but controlled by the Giants (the last standing Giant, and his name is Anti-Christ). See my logic above. Can you find an error?

angophera wrote:...We should consider this possible twist very carefully. If it is correct the real danger for all of us in non-USD zones is that the politicians will attempt to keep their spending party going through truly crushing tax and other burdens on their citizens. Not just gold holders.

Agreed! There will be crushing taxes, but most likely in the form of huge govt spending and printing money. And then capital controls on gold to keep people from escaping from that forced tax-by-inflation.

angophera wrote:...I don't believe that poverty across the board is going to be the result. Gold is just one form of real wealth...

...It is a NEW "division of labour" in the monetary system that seems in some ways similar to other gold "standards" from history but it is not a direct copy, rather a new version of a gold standard. Maybe that is why it is a bit confusing to those of us who think we know a lot about PMs role in monetary systems...

The big difference is the gold isn't being held by the individuals and the nations can play all kinds of games with CPI and inflation:

http://goldwetrust.up-with.com/economics-f4/what-is-money-t44-15.htm#2221
http://goldwetrust.up-with.com/economics-f4/what-is-money-t44-15.htm#2216

So I do not see this as a gold standard. It is lie that will be used to suck the remaining productivity out of the developing world.

angophera wrote:...FOFOA stresses that after Freegold hits gold would have a stable but permanently elevated purchasing power compared to ALL other stores of value including loaves of bread but variable over time in each currency. Gold can then provide the reliable savings vehicle it should always have been in any increment desired eg. "grains" as opposed to grams.

I agree with you, Shelby, that the developing countries have been/do get screwed but perhaps the Giants are only targeting the USA and their partners in crime in this plan.

I think they are mostly definitely targetting both developing and developed world as they always do. They use one against the other. And defeat both.

But the problem is people won't be saving in actual gold, but in paper proxies, and the lies will be rampant.

angophera wrote:...Shelby wrote:
"The only threat to the plan of the Giants is if the precious metals physical default comes too soon,"

Angophera writes:
I think they have thought the possible outcomes through and they are prepared for contingencies. BTW how do we define "too soon" if they have already got their positions in place? Maybe they don't care when it happens just that it happens.

If FOFOA is right this has been a long time in planning and preparation. I supect that the execution of this plan has to date, despite any appearance to the contrary, been proceeding in line with their plan.

Cheers!

The Giants want a one world currency. They don't care about the value of the gold they are holding, they care about the paradigm that forces the world to move towards one centralized control.

So if the currency system went directly to chaos now, where people would be motivated to find their own forms of currency, that would definitely muck up their plans, but they have a contingency for that, it is called WORLD WAR 3.

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Reply Again Soon

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:15 pm

Hi Shelby,

I am going to try to collate the key issues we have raised in this exchange of posts. Then I propose to attempt to clarify where I stand and summarise your position, based on your posts, through a series of brief statements. I will post this in the near future.

If you agree I would then like to identify the key questions we are seeking answers to and flowing from that what we think the answers are at this stage and lastly to try to formulate a "what comes next" scenario. At that point "what to do about it" (aside from the obvious things we all have done anyway like buying PMs) might become clearer.

Does that sound like a plan?

Cheers!

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great

Post  Shelby on Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:24 pm

Take your time. No rush. I am not trying to be combative. I just want to raise points of contention so we can try to hash them out.

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Final Conclusion

Post  Shelby on Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:48 pm

Shelby wrote:...You want to beat the Giants? Create a small society of 10,000 people who put all their savings in silver and who continue earning income and saving. They will become rich and the world will go into Great Depression sooner and be saved possibly from Giants plan (but may bring on WW3).

Re-reading the many details in the prior posts on this page and the prior page of this thread, it is clear that the Giants are moving us towards a globalization system, where the dollar will lose its monopoly as a reserve asset and will be replaced by a basket of currencies with a small percentage of gold in the basket. These are called SDRs and are issued by the IMF. This process started in earnest with $300 billion SDRs issued in August. The result is currencies will compete against each other for their fair market value relative to gold (but central banks will hold SDRs, not 100% gold, as reserve asset). In this system, the size of a currency's economy will dictate the influence it has on other currencies' interest rate policy, and given the populace's and thus the nations' desire to give themselves free money (debase with low interest rates-- a hidden form of taxation that discourages savings or encourages savings in gold), thus there will be an incentive for nations to join in currency blocs, so they can drive their will on (influence more) the rest of world. Being small in this form of socialism will not be successful, unless your populace does not want to debase your currency. In the world today, I see no such nation where the populace is not for govt handouts, socialism, and thus debasement form of taxation. Every where in the world, people think the govt should help to solve problems (they worship govt in direct violation of God's will in 1 Samuel 8 and see how God, i.e. natural law, punished this in 1 Samuel 15).

It is true that a low interest rate policy with high rate of debasement (quantitative easing) does incentivize saving in Gold, but the problem is this system is also extremely mis-allocating of capital, causes capital to get sucked away from the working class and to the billionaire capitalists who have access to these low interest rates. This means a feedback loop spiral into ever increasing need for govt assistance for the populace, and it also drives income and inheritance taxes on rich sky-high (90+% in 1930s Great Depression), thus driving gold into hiding. The billionaires can get loopholes, everyone else falls through the cracks to the poor class.

Thus, if any one is really serious, there is only one way to fight this, and that is to go into suitable markets (the developing world is most ripe as still predominately cash markets at retail, even wholesale, with small economies-of-scale), and create all kinds of every day type of businesses. Do these in partnerships with locals, where you take a % of the profit and be generous and encourage your partners to reinvest to pyramid the scheme (remember the biblical 10% tithe rule, once you have extracted your original capital investment), and once you have built up enough varied businesses, then you can move them away from the local fiat and on to your own private metal backed currency. I mean for example, make a cattle ranch, then open meat retailing outlets. I mean open internet cafes, and then also a wholesaler of computer hardware. If you can gain enough scale, then your private currency will work, and as I showed in earlier post, it can be legal. This strategy will force the govts to get their 90% tax not from debasement, but from a VAT, which of course is politically impossible.

This is the only winning strategy. It will delay the Revelations. It won't stop it, because there are not enough of us and the rest of the population multiplies like rats. But we can make a difference.

I am tired of talking. Time for action.

I want to hear serious objections, or serious calls to action.

To all of you who are burying your metals in your vaults and doing nothing, remember the story of the talents in the Bible. God is going to take revenge on you, and it will be the taxation of your metal when you try to use it, until it is gone. You must put your capital to work. Your metals must be used as a currency and trade. I am explaining above how to do it. Get to work all of you!!! I am sick and tired of we all sitting in our chairs typing into blogs. This is a call to action!

In short, we gold/silver bugs must become capitalists. We must compete with the billionaires on our local scale and build up our scale. It is not time to retire! I do not care what your age!

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Re: What Is Money?

Post  skylick on Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:02 pm

Nice post!

Shelby, you know I am a man of action. I have learned how to extract metals from the earth. I have spent time in the bowels which harbor them. I have aquired land for those who will find themselves penniless in the coming maelstorm. I am willing to give those I can a chance to live in freedom from my land. I have more than I need. I am building a base of partners to assist us by purchasing our goods and produce, produce which is pure and benefical to the body and soul. I am now learning about living water, free from the plumbing of man, pure in form and delivered by the design of God.

A strong and sharp tougue is the result of talking too much. If you want to work together and provide an example to those who believe a righteous walk is not possible in todays world then stand up and let's get to it. I have a plan to reach many enslaved people. Will you join in my efforts? Do you have a plan? If it is better than mine, can I help with yours?

I'm probably the only guy you know that can stand by your side in my belief under extreme pressure. I have stood to take a gunshot at close range for a silly conviction. I have been sliced for not backing down. If I can be courageous in such trivial things, can you imagine what I will be like when I find my ministry? I know you have courage, and I admire it. I think you are mistaken in your belief that we must go it alone as individuals. Jesus had desciples; He taught those who where willing to learn. He was an anchor for those who needed to learn. He taught by example. Are you willing to do the same, or just preach from the bunker?

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re: skylick's efforts

Post  Shelby on Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:21 pm

Btw, my prior post, caused the "Most Readers Online" in one time, to increase from 9 to 15!

We are separated by distance at the moment, and due to the million person "do not fly list" in USA, plus increasing H1N1 checkpoints (forced vaccinations coming!) at airports, I do not want to be flying back and forth between N.America and Asia, until I reach the point where I can afford to rent my own private jet (at which point I will be carting many people back and forth with me probably).

So build up yours there, and involve many of the gold bugs and Christians there as you can, and I will build up mine over here (and possible S.America later), then we can synergize our efforts once we have both gained some economy-of-scale to trade internationally.

But please try to get some other people with you who as smart as you can find (even smarter than both of us), as they can help us find our mistakes before we make them (e.g. when you wanted to make a 100oz bar machine for yellowcaked, that was an economically unsound plan...hehe I have ears every where...you didn't know did you?), as angophera did in this thread, helping me realize the plan of the Giants, so I can better focus my efforts.

There is nothing wrong with capturing the effects of the bubbles, i.e. being the in real estate business before was wise. But to transistion capital from one bubble to next, while also building up sustainable businesses. Also we are urged to trade with the "foreigners" (those who in the Bible were usurers and not followers of Moses). We can not be islands or try to trade only with each other-- that will fail.

I am busy on many fronts, most of them technology focused which will be used in my plans to turn Philippines in the game production capital of the world. But I also want to branch out into agriculture sciences. You and I can find synergies, but I am not going to touch hemp. Let's stick with the things that are less likely to give the govts an excuse to ruin our efforts.

I am interested in courting guys who are so super intelligent they blow my mind, like this one:

dmbarbour

Some posts that showed me he was much more intelligient than most of the people on that site (most of whom have masters or PhD degrees), and note how these relate to the fundamental theorems of universe:

Simplicity
Pessimism fully warranted and FRP and Immediate-mode Scene-graphs
'Subsets' confuses too many and related Begging the Question
"Fascist with a read only mind"
STM Risks and Composition with Transaction Barriers (an online discussion with me)
http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/user/6002/track

Btw, I am interested in being involved with anyone, irregardless of their intellect. Everyone has a role to play in an economic chain, and again, please do not forget that once you've recaptured your investment capital, a fair % is tithe or 10% of the profit (or is that of the gross?).

==========
To summarize, I understand where the world financial system is headed, and it is a 100% socialism enslavement system. It will take a couple of decades to get there. I am suggesting what we can do to change the course of history. And I am suggesting we need to get out and create networks of businesses.

I am working on some specific new business ideas right now. One is to create a network of internet cafes (run by co-invested local managers), and then build software services on top of that. For example open sourcing games creation and then unleash the creativity of these idle young men in the developing world. Give them "games programming classes" instead of drugs. Turn the world into capitalists instead of a social services morass of failure and slavery.


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Re: What Is Money?

Post  skylick on Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:30 pm

Thanks for the answer. I'll leave you to it then.

Btw, I did know that yellowcaked told you about the machine. He wanted it, and I could have built it for him. If I thought the machine was worthwhile, I would have built one for myself.

You have ears everywhere? Maybe I have eyes everywhere, hee hee. Seriously, you are just talk...all hat and no cattle, as they say.


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Other Voices On The Euro

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:33 pm

Hi Shelby,

While taking a break from preparing the material I flagged to you yesterday I am visiting other sites that I review regularly. If I come across any gems that touch on our discussion I will post them.

From Axel Merk the currency and Forex expert:
http://www.merkfunds.com/merk-perspective/insights/2009-11-05.html

Excerpt from his recent article: Who Cares About the Dollar?
(Emphasis in bold below from me.)
"In the U.S., the federal government can launch a trillion dollar stimulus package; similarly, the Treasury can inject hundreds of billions into ailing banks. Not so in Europe: fiscal stimuli have to come from regional governments; the same with bank bailouts: the money comes from regional pockets. As a result, the Eurozone cannot ramp up spending as quickly as the U.S. Similarly, in our assessment, the ECB’s support programs to the markets carry fewer inflationary risks than those of the Fed; the ECB programs keep banks alive (by providing liquidity on an unlimited basis), although they are slower to recapitalize. As a result, we may see lackluster growth, if any, in Europe, but it may well be with the backdrop of a much stronger currency. It’s a fallacy to assume that one always needs economic growth to support a strong currency (see our analysis of the yen) – that’s only the case when financing from abroad is required to support a current account deficit."

Q. Can you see how the design of the Euro meets the basic "needs" of the banks and politicians but at the same time tries to curb many of their worst excesses? (Excesses on graphic display in the US and UK "model".)

BANK "Needs' Met Under A Transactional Euro:
-They can still fractionally reserve.

-In a bank run or credit squeeze they have access to liquidity.

BANK Excesses Curbed Under A Transactional Euro:
-They cannot obtain unlimited capital to make up for losses and bad management. In other words they cannot socialise their losses and capitalise their profits to the same extent as Wall Street because the Euro is not under the control of ONE Government.

POLITICIANS' "Needs" Met Under A Transactional Euro:
-They can still issue fiat currency. So they can still operate an inflation tax.

-They can exit from the Euro and return to national currency if the system breaks down or fails to take their regional interests into account.

POLITICIANS' Excesses Curbed Under A Transactional Euro:
- They cannot unilaterally issue as much fiat currency as they wish. In other words Euro issuance and debasement is NOT the decision of ONE Government.

- The extent of the inflation tax is limited by their economic performance ie. they can only siphon off the productivity "dividend".

-Interests rates on Euro loans can vary across regions within the EU. Capital flows can, to a degree, reflect regional differences in business cycles and economic performance.

(Please Note: This "differential interest rate across regions" strategy was part of the original architecture of the US Federal Reserve. Trashed when the NY Fed gained total control of interest rate setting.)

-They can be expelled from the Euro if they fail to "play by the ECB rules".

Cheers!

PS. When I post the other material I will highlight how strong the PM tradition is across Europe, the wide availability of PMs and the official encouragement for the public to accumulate PMs eg. the SALES TAX (VAT) on gold was removed when the Euro was launched. Coincidence? I think not.

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FOFOA Explains ECB Gold Reserves vs Unbacked Euro

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:39 pm

Hi Shelby,

In this extract FOFOA tries to explain that the ECB has gold reserves held as an appreciating ASSET not as backing for the Euro. The Euro is NOT redeemable for the ECB gold reserves. They are not linked.

FOFOA wrote:
"Here is a simple explanation. Until 1971 the dollar was "backed" by gold. This meant that certain entities could exchange their dollars for gold from the US Treasury. This forced parity (LINK) caused the stockpile of official gold to disappear.

From 1980 until 2001, these same entities could exchange their dollars for gold from the gold market, within a controlled price range. This caused the stockpiles of physical gold available IN THIS MARKET to disappear. This went on until (in the mid-90's) the CB's themselves had to once again become primary suppliers, just like before 1971!

The Washington Agreement in 1999 finally put a cap on this, right after Brown donked off half of England's gold. And for the next decade to present, the price began to rise.

Any controlled parity "link" causes stockpiles of physical to disappear!!

If you want to create a currency where your CB gold reserves will NOT disappear, you simply let the price of gold float freely against your currency! This will make it so that anyone anywhere can always exchange their fiat for gold because the price will be such that the market supply always meets the market demand. No need to EVER tap into the official stockpile! The severed LINK!

An additional benefit (if you have a 15% gold reserve to start) is that as the price of gold rises, so does the value of your reserves sitting behind your currency! This acts as a levered balance which protects the value of your currency. (See my post Your Own Personal Freegold)

Allowing gold to float freely against fiat currency is the way to make fiat sustainable once again! Anyone, anywhere, will always be able to exit their fiat position for the durability and value of physical gold! Freegold! Just like pre-1933, only SUSTAINABLE!

Sincerely,
FOFOA

November 4, 2009 3:14 PM"

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See through the lies

Post  Shelby on Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:04 pm

angophera wrote:...In the U.S., the federal government can launch a trillion dollar stimulus package...

Not so in Europe: fiscal stimuli have to come from regional governments; the same with bank bailouts...As a result, the Eurozone cannot ramp up spending as quickly as the U.S. Similarly, in our assessment, the ECB’s support programs to the markets carry fewer inflationary risks than those of the Fed; the ECB programs keep banks alive (by providing liquidity on an unlimited basis), although they are slower to recapitalize...

Q. Can you see how the design of the Euro meets the basic "needs" of the banks and politicians but at the same time tries to curb many of their worst excesses? (Excesses on graphic display in the US and UK "model".)...

The US stimulus is all going to the banks, there is no increase to the population (except for what was already scheduled for increasing enrollment in social programs and new bailouts for banks in form of real estate subsidies), in fact COLA was just abolished for Social Security retirees in USA! The only difference is that EU already is nearly 100% socialized, so there is no growth and thus there is no "inflation", but that is a lie, but there is massive inflation in EU in food and gas but this is obscured by the fact that taxes were already 90% of the price! You see EU is an example that the govt is already 90% of the economy and thus the changes in the 10% are really insignificant. It is a model of where the rest of the world is headed, where for example in Belgium, you need a permit to go work some where (if you stop your car on side of road during day, an inspector will come ask you what you are doing), and where you need a tax id for each new egg your chicken lays.

If you put the control over how much fiat can be created at an entity far from the people, then that entity can disobey the wishes of some of the people (e.g. Italy) in favor others (e.g. Germany), but that only works because most of the people agree with that. It coincides with what I wrote about in prior post, that nations will be incentivized to form blocs. Realize that EU is most old people with savings. Thus the ECB is respecting their objectives, which is low inflation and higher interest rates. But this fits because EU is demographically an old and decaying society, with not a very high private debt load (only at banks which did foreign financing for Eastern Europe). The inflation is low because the majority component of prices in EU is tax. Tax is not increasing, because the EU is pretty much a static decaying society-- their demographic time bomb already passed and has reached an equilibrium at a very low rate of growth (actually a deflation in real terms if govt lies about CPI and such are removed). Note UK is an exception, as you noted, which is why they are not part of the EU (they can't fit in).

Whereas, the developing nations need growth, because they have young demographic populations, and thus the govts will stimulate with low interest rates. Of course this steals from the middle class as I explained in my prior posts.

This is a recipe for a NWO of enslavement.

Disagree, it is does not enforce any discipline on the nations (except at the margins of Italy vs. Germany, but not at BRiCs vs. EU). The other nations will now compete to be as socialized as the EU.

angophera wrote:...PS. When I post the other material I will highlight how strong the PM tradition is across Europe, the wide availability of PMs and the official encouragement for the public to accumulate PMs eg. the SALES TAX (VAT) on gold was removed when the Euro was launched. Coincidence? I think not...

The Giants do not mind if a bunch of old retirees in EU have some gold that they bury in their backyard. That is precisely wrong as I explained in my prior posts. And notice how silver is still highly taxed in EU! What the Giants (nor the nations) do not want is a circulating currency backed by gold.

This big risk for the Giants is in the developing world, if people spontaneously started using silver backed currency.

angophera wrote:...They cannot unilaterally issue as much fiat currency as they wish. In other words Euro issuance and debasement is NOT the decision of ONE Government...

The fallacy of your assumptions, is to note that the ONE govt must also respond to the "wishes" of the majority, meaning it can still embellish the populace in usury and debasement. In EU, the rate of debasement is much lower, because the tax rates are so high. In Asia, they can not make tax rates high, so it is politically better to increase the rate of debasements. Ditto USA, but soon the political will in USA will allow taxing the rich at 90+% once the upper middle class has been whittled down.

The floating nature of the currency blocs coming will not cause a discipline of a gold money, rather they will cause enslavement of the group to the wishes of the group, i.e. increasing SOCIALISM. Whether that SOCIALISM takes on the form of increasing taxes, increasing debasement, or combos, depends on the demographics of the bloc. But in all cases, it is bad for us.

angophera wrote:...In this extract FOFOA tries to explain that the ECB has gold reserves held as an appreciating ASSET not as backing for the Euro. The Euro is NOT redeemable for the ECB gold reserves. They are not linked...

Exactly what I thought in my prior post. They list the member countries gold as an asset, but it is not redeemable in Euros. Thus the people do not have a gold money system, they instead are in a group enslavement system.

angophera wrote:...Allowing gold to float freely against fiat currency is the way to make fiat sustainable once again! Anyone, anywhere, will always be able to exit their fiat position for the durability and value of physical gold! Freegold! Just like pre-1933, only SUSTAINABLE!...

Sustainable in the direction towards 100% socialism!! Yeah you can convert between gold and your local fiat, after paying your (28% currently in USA) capital gains taxes on the gain, when the gold price is constantly appreciating relative to fiat!! The govt will take all your gold with taxes in time. Only the billionaires will be given a loophole. I understand there is no capital gains on gold in EU? This is because gold ownership is not a threat there, because interest rates and (sales and income) taxes are super high (no need to debase, and you can't use gold to avoid the sales/VAT or income taxes).


Do you understand now, or still disagree??

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100% At Cross Purposes

Post  Guest on Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:34 am

Hi Shelby,

Shelby wrote:
Do you understand now, or still disagree??

Angophera writes:
Disagree with what, precisely? I am not an advocate for this plausible Euro Freegold system nor have I been attempting to divine the motives of the sponsors up to this point. I have been trying to confirm the structure and mechanisms of the system. I think I have now reached that point.

Now that I feel confident about that I feel comfortable with trying to discern the motives of the sponsors and how it might influence "what comes next?".

Q. Why should we limit our thinking by NOT considering the VERY real possibility that there are competing factions and agendas at work rather than one, global plan?

This Euro/Freegold project looks like Old European money at work to me. Could it be hijacked down the track by other players with a different agenda? ABSOLUTELY. You describe Europe as "decaying" or "decayed"? Wow. An old Polish colleague of mine once told me that if I wanted to identify the homes of the richest families in Venice to look for the homes with the most dilapidated facades. Behind those facades would be where the TRUE mega-wealth resided.

This could easily be both defensive and an assault on the Anglo-American cabal without being anything grander in scope. It could, for example, be an attempt to break the UK pound and force them into the Euro system on the EU's terms. At the same time to also break the USD hegemony to remove the real threat that the USD poses to everyone else on the planet. Would elements in the USA play ball on a project like this? Wall Street? You bet, if there was a buck in it.

I can, with total confidence, assure you that the Chinese will have their own plans and agendas. If they appear to be a lap dog of the "round eyes" be assured it is only an act.

CHINA
1. The Chinese leadership in Beijing have "no skin in the game". Beyond their family obligations within China I assert that they could not give a rat's ass what happens to China.

Of course the Chinese leadership want to stay in power but they are fully hedged against both losing power and from any wrong move they make that brings repercussions to China. I am extremely confident in saying this.

They have secured their future by exporting their children and setting up networks based on regional ethnicity (Han, Fukienese etc), family and business connections. The glue is guanxi, basically favours given and obligations to repay earlier favours. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanxi for detail.

If TSHTF and they cannot get out easily their families will buy their freedom and if that doesn't save them they join the pantheon of honoured ancestors who established their family dynasty.

The structures to facilitate this were put in place in 1946 to 1947 ie. immediately after the Communist takeover. The mechanisms and structures were explained to me by the one of the participants in this "system" over 20 years ago.

2. The real Chinese PTB are the Overseas Chinese (OSC) community numbering over 50 million by some estimates (minillions only apply to USD amounts). The Chinese leadership are part of this community through family and business relationships. These people are "stateless". Their wealth is "stateless" and mobile. Some estimates of their wealth placed it at USD$2 trivillion+ over a decade ago. Regardless it is a huge amount and NO the bulk wont be in US dollars by now.

3. A lot, if not most, of the discussions about "What China will/wont do" are wrong-headed. The mainstream media drivel is nothing if not consistent. Unfortunately many of the really good analysts and thinkers you find online haven't grasped that the Chinese PTB aren't hostage to China's fortunes.

The OSC have established their bolt holes and refuges. Obviously the list includes Singapore but add Sydney, Australia and Vancouver (among others) to the list as well. Witness the evolution of staid, puritanical Singapore into a tax haven. The Sentosa real estate development and allowing Casinos was the "heads up". Can't do the laundry without a washing machine can you?

If the US wants to intimidate the Chinese PTB threatening to nuke Vancouver on short notice would be a better bet!

4. China has a host of very real problems. A looming water crisis, pollution, poverty, desertification, overcapacity, malinvestment etc BUT nothing on this list would bother an absentee owner who was sufficiently callous. As Deng Xiaoping said at the time of the Tiananmen Square massacre "a million more, a million less".

I am ALWAYS sceptical and cautious about assuming that well-orchestrated conspiracies are at work which IS NOT to say that I automatically assume that they don't exist.

I saw, first hand, an example of spontaneous organisation at work in the lead up to the Y2K hysteria. To anyone looking on it could easily look like a "conspiracy". I think it was merely an opportunistic convergence of common interest. People who knew it was bullshit "went along for the ride" because they could see how much money was there to be made. The co-operation, I saw firsthand, in fleecing clients was ad hoc in most cases.

Perhaps there was a plan to provoke the hysteria but it is equally possible to make the case that plans were hatched to pump it after the players scented the hysteria that was already developing and seized the opportunity. BTW I think the pulling forward of future demand was one of the key reasons that so many vendors went close to BK in the years afterward. If it was a conspiracy, rather than short term greed and stupidity, it was totally inept.

Q. Does this mean that I can say with ABSOLUTE conviction that there is no evidence of a Y2K conspiracy? NO, but I would need to see some evidence to refute my firsthand observations. If it comes my way I will change my mind.

Cheers!

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please let's get to a conclusion, because I want to direct my actions accordingly

Post  Shelby on Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:53 am

Hi angophera, please be sure our discussion/debate is nothing personal, let's just try to reach some conclusions. Yes you have been helping me/us to see/analyze the structure, which is very much appreciated (even I described it as "brilliant").

Btw, you are apparently the only person in the world, that I can discuss this with. So I hope you understand just how special you are. Can we please come to some practical conclusions?

angophera wrote:...Disagree with what, precisely?...

I disagree with (freegold thesis) that the structure of the new globalization will liberate gold holders from the wrath of nations, nor do I agree that it will discipline the fast growing (BRICs) and fast peaking regions (USA, UK) from massively debasing their currencies. It will instead be a competitive devaluation. Disagree?

angophera wrote:...I am not an advocate for this plausible Euro Freegold system nor have I been attempting to divine the motives of the sponsors up to this point. I have been trying to confirm the structure and mechanisms of the system. I think I have now reached that point...

IMPORTANT: Understanding the structure is useless, if we can't make some conclusions about the likely effects.

NOISE: Whether or not those effects match motives of certain Giants, is not relevant, except that when it all fits together, it resonates even more as likely to be true.

angophera wrote:...Now that I feel confident about that I feel comfortable with trying to discern the motives of the sponsors and how it might influence "what comes next?"...

We must.

angophera wrote:...Q. Why should we limit our thinking by NOT considering the VERY real possibility that there are competing factions and agendas at work rather than one, global plan?...

I have repeatedly agreed. I have not stated otherwise. Nevertheless the structure is driving towards a single currency and single faction at the end.

And it so happens to fit exactly with the quotes of Rothschild (1828), Rockefeller (late 1991), and President Bush Senior (1990) about the objectives and timing of the NWO:

======================

http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/globalism/rockefeller.htm

Rockefeller 1991 Bilderberg meeting wrote:We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine, and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination [read as 'democracy'] practiced in past centuries.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Illuminati/quotes_on_the_new_world_order.htm (read all quotes on this link!)

Rothschild 1828 wrote:Allow me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who writes the laws.

Notice the Sept. 11 date (WTC plane attacks)
President Bush 9/11/1990 wrote:What is at stake is more than one small country, it is a big idea - a new world order...to achieve the universal aspirations of mankind...based on shared principles and the rule of law.

=====================

angophera wrote:...This Euro/Freegold project looks like Old European money at work to me. Could it be hijacked down the track by other players with a different agenda? ABSOLUTELY. You describe Europe as "decaying" or "decayed"? Wow. An old Polish colleague of mine once told me that if I wanted to identify the homes of the richest families in Venice to look for the homes with the most dilapidated facades. Behind those facades would be where the TRUE mega-wealth resided...

The word "hijacked" is an oxymoron in this context, because the structure tells us what will happen. Hijacking is part and parcel of what the structure allows or doesn't allow. So it is only hijacking from the perspective of one of the competing factions, but NOT hijacking in terms of the true overall direction of the structure. I am analyzing what the structure will do overall, and you are telling us what the freegold thesis thinks one competing faction wants.

Of course, the old money in europe is trying to preserve itself, and this is entirely consistent with the other things I have written in this thread. But the old money in europe is a very small % (large % of the wealth) of the population, and I am writing about the populace that is decaying demographically and the EU is about 90% taxed and socialized to death. That old money in europe indeed is looking to gain even more control and wealth, by converting the rest of the world to the dead european model (west europe, not eastern/balkans yet), where they already have all the control.

Their model has nothing to do with making gold free of taxation (in all nations at this coming epoch) and other obstacles for the masses. They do not need nor want that. They are above the national laws. They are trying to formulate structure that brings the rest of the world until their hidden control (as they secretly control the EU now). Any way, we do not need to know their motives, we only need to look at the structure that is being created now and realize that it leads to horrific outcomes for everyone except the super rich. PERIOD! Can you disagree with outcomes for normal people?

angophera wrote:...This could easily be both defensive and an assault on the Anglo-American cabal without being anything grander in scope. It could, for example, be an attempt to break the UK pound and force them into the Euro system on the EU's terms. At the same time to also break the USD hegemony to remove the real threat that the USD poses to everyone else on the planet. Would elements in the USA play ball on a project like this? Wall Street? You bet, if there was a buck in it...

For any structure to work, the large players below the Giants, have to be incentivized, so yes those are good and plausible incentives. This is an area of contribution to the analysis, where your brilliance shines.

angophera wrote:...I can, with total confidence, assure you that the Chinese will have their own plans and agendas. If they appear to be a lap dog of the "round eyes" be assured it is only an act.

CHINA
1. The Chinese leadership in Beijing have "no skin in the game". Beyond their family obligations within China I assert that they could not give a rat's ass what happens to China...

AGREED! I have written that innumerable times myself, since at least 2 years ago.

And that fits very well with my understanding of what the structure of the new global financial system will do overall. I will repeat again, that it will be negative for everyone, even gold holders, except billionaires with connections.

angophera wrote:...The OSC have established their bolt holes and refuges. Obviously the list includes Singapore but add Sydney, Australia and Vancouver (among others) to the list as well. Witness the evolution of staid, puritanical Singapore into a tax haven. The Sentosa real estate development and allowing Casinos was the "heads up". Can't do the laundry without a washing machine can you?

If the US wants to intimidate the Chinese PTB threatening to nuke Vancouver on short notice would be a better bet!...

Your description of the international diversification of the Chinese PTB is lucid and correct, but it is missing one major point. The structure of the overall globalization has them trapped in the end game. They are wigging in their own demise, because they think they are above God. The Red Dragon is discussed in Revelations, and yes it will be a factor for a while, but in the end it loses its head also.

These idiots are helping to reinforce the structure that will be their own demise, because just like the Chinese I see here in Philippines, they don't give a rats ass about people under them. For example, here they think nothing of putting toxic chemicals on rice they import, so they can sell otherwise rancid rice.

They think their assets will be liquid, secure, and beyond the jurisdiction of any authority, but that is until the blocs get formed to go after the former power structures that looted the people from a distance.

They are precisely creating the need for a NWO jurisdiction, because they do not care about uplifting others in a capitalist manner, but rather they learned the socialist mantra-- to steal stealthy is wisest.

I think we should be competing with them over here in Asia, but note it won't be easy because they have made sure you (a round eye) can not get into any serious business in Asia. You can't go into retailing, you can't open a bank account in Singapore if you are USA citizen, etc.. And they are making inroads to take over Australia and Western Canada also. Realize I am talking about certain Chinese, not all Chinese populace.

angophera wrote:...4. China has a host of very real problems. A looming water crisis, pollution, poverty, desertification, overcapacity, malinvestment etc BUT nothing on this list would bother an absentee owner who was sufficiently callous. As Deng Xiaoping said at the time of the Tiananmen Square massacre "a mi[ni]llion more, a mi[ni]llion less".

Agreed! Read what I wrote above.

Hehe, you forgot to use minillion, so I edited your quote slightly.

angophera wrote:...I am ALWAYS sceptical and cautious about assuming that well-orchestrated conspiracies are at work which IS NOT to say that I automatically assume that they don't exist...

The conspiracy is where the structure actually goes in the end. The Y2K was nonsense and I knew it because I am programmer and studied the non issue of it. I have threads in this forum about non-sense of peak oil and global warming. Nuclear can provide very high EROEI, and that can be used to extract all the oil we need from 100+ year supply of coal in the ground. And surely we can transistion to all electric economy in 100 years. There are even solid state reactors (super safe, no pressurized water, so can not fail) that you can bury in your backyard (Toshiba) good for 20 years to power an entire small town.

Whereas, this structure we are seeing develop for the new global financial system is leading us exactly to a situation of absentee rulers who give the stupid populace what ever they want, even if it means assured mutual destruction decades on, i.e. as I stated these BRICs will tax and spend via the inflation/stimulus tax (as they are doing!).

I am saying we need to get on with competing with these idiots, by creating business networks of sufficient scale that we can then trade using truely gold/silver back currencies privately (at enough scale that it is worthwhile). Truely backed, means I can exchange a notional for physical any time as an individual with no significant transaction cost.

Do you still disagree and think freegold thesis is our savior?? Or have I convinced you?

(you didn't say "savior", but you said you do not think outcomes will be that bad for gold holders, so this implies you believe the freegold thesis is the likely outcome)

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SDR basket weights

Post  Shelby on Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:04 pm

Shelby wrote:...the Giants are moving us towards a globalization system, where the dollar will lose its monopoly as a reserve asset and will be replaced by a basket of currencies with a small percentage of gold in the basket. These are called SDRs and are issued by the IMF. This process started in earnest with $300 billion SDRs issued in August. The result is currencies will compete against each other for their fair market value relative to gold (but central banks will hold SDRs, not 100% gold, as reserve asset). In this system, the size of a currency's economy will dictate the influence it has on other currencies' interest rate policy...


http://financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/iacono/2009/1104.html


I think you can see below the IMF is helping countries get their gold so they appropriately ranked, so that the SDR basket weightings will reflect economic reality. The gold will not be 100% of the basket, but the ratio of gold will be reflected in the weightings in the basket.

I suspect at least that (large portion of) the USA and German gold doesn't exist, perhaps France and Italy also. The German gold was stored in the USA, and there hasn't been audit in decades. I suspect as others do, that it has all been sold off in the form of gold leases to bullion banks.

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RobRoy has deleted his account from this forum

Post  Shelby on Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:25 pm

Apparently because I moved his reply to this thread to here.

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We Are OK

Post  Guest on Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:57 pm

Hi Shelby,

I feel the same way about this discussion. There are very few people you can discuss this topic with because the knowledge and information base that you need to have amassed to have a useful discussion is very broad and deep.

I think that in some areas we are agreeing but using different language or coming at the topics from different perspectives. This is perhaps creating the appearance of disagreement or lack of understanding in some areas.

Perhaps it will help if I clarify a few points about my mindset:

1. "They will attempt to steal everything from everyone" is my default setting.

2. I am not seeking to defeat the Giants. As Jim Sinclair said in an interview something along the lines of "you can't stop them .. you just have to ride it out". I also think that their schemes will ultimately result in disaster whether through divine intervention or the operation of the laws of nature (is that a tautology?).

3. I am trying to understand where this is going so I can help myself and the people I care about. Also I retain a vestige of hope that the collaboration which the "InterWeb" facilitates might lead to a "break through" of some description that opens up a new path for us all.

I realize that I tend to cover old ground in my posts but it is just the way my mind works. I have to step through things on the way to reaching conclusions.

I am working on a new post that tries to knit together the outcome of my research and analysis on these topics as well as drawing some preliminary conclusions about "what comes next".

Cheers!

PS. Sorry to hear RobRoy is out. I hope he finds a forum that suits him.

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Re: What Is Money?

Post  skylick on Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:25 am

angophera wrote:
3. I am trying to understand where this is going so I can help myself and the people I care about.

I know this was addressed to Shelby, but regardless, I wish to respond to the above point.

When you or Shelby actually reach a point of having done something material to help those you love, or have prepared so that the ones you love have the option of taking help from you, please let us know what you have done. I have taken steps already and will be happy to share what I am doing if you gents do the same.

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Sharing Ideas On Helping People We Care About

Post  Guest on Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:31 am

Hi skylick,

Happy to share. I have done a few of the obvious things:

1. Encouraged them to purchase gold.

2. Whenever the latest media dis-information comes up in conversation I take the opportunity to refute it and direct people toward reliable sources of information about what is really going on -online, books etc (to assist them to verify what I am trying to communicate).

3. Discouraged family members from buying houses in recent years as opposed to renting.

4. Helped people get out of debt or to restructure their debts in such a way as to minimise their exposure to exploitation by the banksters.

5. Re-localised our purchases (to keep the money in the local community).

6. By example we have tried to show how you can have a good quality of life without being addicted to consumption.

7. In the enterprise I work in we try to job share, juggle hours and personnel rosters to avoid laying anyone off during down turns.

In general we also try to avoid co-operating in any investment, project or initiative that we can see will be putting money in the pockets of crooks even if, say, an investment product itself is legitimate. In practice this means we would purchase a financial service through a local Credit Union rather than a Bank.

There is an interview with Catherine Austin Fitts on maxkeiser.com from his On The Edge show in which CAF makes some really simple, common sense suggestions about what people can do.

Cheers!

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re: Sharing Ideas On Helping People We Care About

Post  Shelby on Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:16 am

I did also all of angophera's 1-6 (not 7), as well moved myself and members out of USA and live in a $90 per month rental and have restructured our diet to be composed of only simple raw ingredients (i.e. a banana, rice, a grilled meat, and a vegetable lightly cooked). We use no modern medicines any more. I can probably survive now off the raw earth (jungle), eating root crops, if I have to (won't be pleasant without meat and grains). I have also made sure I can still run (at a good speed) 10 kilometers without stopping, so I can escape by foot if ever necessary, perhaps even acting as decoy for other members to obtain safety. I have created networks of people I know all over the world. I have just started to figure out how to develop income businesses during this epoch, and I hope to bear fruit on that and accelerate in 2010. The next stage will be launch a private metal-backed currency for use in inter-trading in my businesses should I reach sufficient scale. I have educated innumerable people all over the world, both in my writings and in person. There are probably many other things I have failed to mention.

Your turn skylick? What have you done?

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Re: What Is Money?

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