Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing?

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You are the one who is insane

Post  Shelby on Thu May 27, 2010 11:58 pm

R N wrote:Totally insane responses of someone who has truly 'lost his marbles'. I view your philosophy as someone trying to convince me that the world is flat, that is - with pity for the state of your mental health.

As a psychiatrist, you try to build a case to declare that I am insane, when in fact you are the one who is insane.

The psychiatrist profession is totally corrupt and work for the elite:

http://goldwetrust.up-with.com/health-f5/epidemic-of-psychiatry-t31.htm
http://thegoldspeculator.blogspot.com/2009/10/depression.html
http://goldwetrust.up-with.com/technology-f8/psychology-t123.htm#2201

R N wrote:You verbally attacked the UK and how you see it.

USA fought your country to escape your oppression. For a hundred years at least, we had a gold+silver money system that was 33,900% more prosperous:

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article16212.html

Who is more insane, the one who argues for prosperity or the one who argues for oppression by the elite banksters?

On the soapbox of public opinion (at least in rural USA), if both you and I are given the opportunity to speak, I can guarantee you that I will win the public opinion, because I have the truth. You have insanity. Your elite would never allow me to speak on the mass media. They are too afraid of the truth.

Paul Revere and others gave their lives to escape your insanity.

R N wrote:You have attacked China on a number of occasions - almost to the point of making it out to be responsible for all America's problems.

Here you try to distort what I have written. I have said that China is a highly socialist system, and I have said their pegging of the Yuan to a fixed exchange rate, has enslaved their own people (as compared to the prosperity if their people could freely travel and invest abroad), and thus caused interest rates to be too low in the western world, thus exacerbating the current epic western debt bubble. I am trying to help the Chinese people escape the oppression of their system. I love all the people of the world, whereas you have written that you view the masses as stupid and you detest them.

Damn correct! China has been a very distortive force driving socialism into the western world, but of course the westerners have gladly played the role of the fattened sheep.


R N wrote:This is not something I like to do, but at times it is necessary to bring some balance.

So I point out a few home truths. which you find it convenient to overlook.

America has the most heavily armed civilian population in the world. It has the highest gun crime, and the highest number of its people incarcerated - many of them on death row.

Nonsense.

However, in the state with the highest gun ownership, Texas, I think you will find that crime is very low outside the cities. The high incidence of crime all over the USA are the cities where the civilians are not armed.

Your elite have inundated the country with drugs. You have admitted they control and are involved in the drug trade.

I think you are aware how UK got it's silver back from China, after losing it all in one-way trade, they addicted the entire southern half of China to opium. I think you know that was the entire purpose of Hong Kong.

R N wrote:Remove your police force for a couple of days and you would have the civil war all over again with brother killing brother,

Nonsense. Only the cities will become chaotic, because the cities do not have the truth. And that would be a good thing. I would love to see the Americans escape the cities and get back to their roots which made us a great country.

The free market can handle it all. The cities would initially be chaotic, then after all the drug addicts and idiots kill each other, then a natural order (balance) will return.

And no way we would have civil war. Most of those who are armed enough to go to war, are level headed. The loose cannons would quickly get killed.

The civil war coming will only be because the elite are going to encourage the cities to attack and fight to the gun owners. It is going to be rural versus the socialist cities. The elite will foster this. The free market would just let the cities die (morph) due to migration.

R N wrote:Those heavily armed people who pay only lip service to loving freedom stay silent as their fellow Americans who try to stand up against the system are gunned by their government- Ruby Ridge, Waco. Kent State U ( unarmed students on their own campus.)

Americans are tolerant to a certain point, and that point is about to reach a boiling point.

You elite think you are in control, but you are going to get surprise soon. Your elite did not expect the Climategate hacker to foil their entire Global Warming scam. Entropy wins.

R N wrote:I say no more......your views read like a sick joke. America only fools its own people, not the rest of the world.

We see the lie of the 'American Dream' it has been a 'dream' built on the nightmare of third world nations and getting the rest of the world to fund that 'dream' by misusing the status of holding the world's reserve currency. This, among other nefarious uses compels all nations to buy oil in dollars. And when a nation which can't hit back with a strong military backed by nuclear weapons it bombs the hell out of it, in a trumped up war kills and maim hundreds of thousands (at least) of innocent Iraqis.

On this we agree.

The Americans deserve the crisis coming to them. They have completely abandoned the principles that made the country so prosperous in the 1800s.

R N wrote:The few Americans who stood against it all, along with mothers of young Americans, who went unarmed to complain, they were not backed by their well armed fellow Americans who stayed home, sat in front of their TV's with their six packs and cheered as their 'brave boys' slaughtered civilians and a known totally inferior military - not even an air force worth mentioning.

Your stereotype of America is not valid for about 2 - 3 million people who still follow the principles that made the country great. These 2 or 3 million are going to assert themselves soon. Their time is coming.

R N wrote:So please do not talk about your guns. They are useless without the guts to use them.

Oh they have the guts. They are just level-headed. The time is coming.

Besides you don't seem to comprehend, that the antithesis of socialism, is that someone with a gun uses it to protect himself and his family, not to protect others who were too stupid not to arm themselves.

As for the govt using overwhelming force at waco, the waco sect probably deserved it, because they were not acting as individuals, but rather holed up together as some kind of socialistic, religious, cult scam.

R N wrote:The vast majority of British police on the streets are still unarmed, but do not shirk doing their duty. How many American police would go out unarmed. (Rhetorical)

No guns in a society that is not free and nearly dead. How are you going to like it when there is a camera in every room of your house, and you need a permit to go from room to room?

The big mistake in your logic, is you think the socialism (centralized rules, laws, control) will have some reasonable limit. The greed of the elite to control all human capital, will not stop until even you Ray, find you have no freedom at all. And you continue to refuse to address this point? Do you really think the socialism will not at some point take away your freedoms?

I hope you are paying attention to that quote I provided about UK cameras on every lamppost. Some Americans detest your country and your system. It is your choice, and each of us has our own choice.

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Odds and Ends

Post  wescal on Fri May 28, 2010 2:04 am

As to psychiatry, I think that Dr. Jose Delgado and Dr. Ewen Cameron had careers that attest to its tyrannical bent. Dr. Delgado once said that man has no right to the development of his own mind. That's not an exact quote, but it sums up the man's attitude toward freedom. Aldous Huxley and Bertrand Russell as amateur psychologists and professional philosophers seem to have similar attitudes toward the free will of mass man.

As to Waco, there is plenty on the web(Rules of Engagement and America: Wake up or Waco) to show how unjust the attack of US Army and the FBI was in that women and children were burnt to death. I will always think of Janet Reno as a Gorgon Medusa. Bill Clinton also earned my contempt at Waco.

As to guns, I see them as a check to a tyrannical government. I don't think the Soviet Union or N.S. Germany could have succeeded with a strong gun culture in the population.

Anyhow, please continue on gentlemen. It's an interesting debate.

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COMPREHENSION.....PSYCHIATRY and PSYCHOLOGY

Post  R N on Fri May 28, 2010 4:45 am

Very short, quick, response. I have pointed out to you before, you should read and comprehend before you respond. NOWHERE have I said that I am a psychiatrist, or even mensioned the word.

Got that - NOWHERE!

There is a very big difference between a psychiatrist and a psychologist. You should know the difference if you are going to comment

Every human is a 'psychologist' to some degree by default. That is whether he/she takes this to academic study or not. It only refers to gaining an understanding of human behaviour.

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MANY KINDS of 'FREEDOMS'

Post  R N on Fri May 28, 2010 8:27 am


......I hope you are paying attention to that quote I provided about UK cameras on every lamppost. Some Americans detest your country and your system. It is your choice, and each of us has our own choice......."

Heard the one about - 'One man's terrorist, is another man's freedom fighter'.

Some Americans detest any nation which the media decides is the hate flavour of the month, or year, or as long as it takes to shift their attention form their home problems. Some Americans now detest America now the facade of false illusion has been peeled away

Read some of your forums where Americans chew over their concerns. Never before have so many Americans wanted to get out of the US. We have a very large American community in the UK, especially London. And they are here because they love it here - in spite of our changeable weather. In fact if we had the weather of some sunnier climes, this island would have sunk long ago by the weight of people. Already our population is growing fast.

If I ever were to have doubts about the UK, I would only need to talk to so many foreigners who have made their home here. (as I have). They see all the good things that we so easily take for granted, and one of those is OUR FREEDOM.

Heard about Magna Carta? Not all that long ago, Britain stood ALONE to fight the World's most powerful military machine at the time, one that had conquered the whole of Europe.

Had Britain not held out, the world would be a different place today. Even fighting on three fronts they fought long and hard. The Germans eventually produced a V2 rocket that you could not detect. Had they not bitten off a little more than they could chew that rocket would soon have been able to reach the US, if only launched from their U-Boats.

It later became the backbone of the rocket industry in the US. The man behind the Atomic bomb was German/Jewish.

There are many varieties of conflicting 'freedoms' in the US.

Freedom is not an American creation. All people, all animals, love freedom. But Freedom means different things to different people. It can mean the freedom to take advantage of others. It can mean the freedom to follow ones religious beliefs without the scorn of others. It can be the freedom to abolish religions, It can mean the freedom to bomb the hell out of another nation, or bring economic sanctions against it, and force all other nations to go along with it
The Iraqis love Freedom.

The Taliban love freedom, and are prepared to die fighting to defend it. And they are doing one hell of a job. Why? Because they believe that their God, their freedom, and their right, on their side.

They have no interest to impose their way on the US, or the West. But the US wants to impose their idea of freedom onto them. (At least that is one of the reasons given)

Thousands kept chained by the legs, isolated, in prison for years without trial, without hope, like caged animals. By whom? By the self acclaimed champions of freedom. Does America only want freedom and justice for itself, while removing it from others?

No, the Taliban's form of freedom is certainly not my kind, but neither is my kind theirs, and I respect that.

If the British people felt CCTV cameras were imposing on our freedom, they would be ripped, by our UNARMED citizens from every point they were placed. We got rid of the prime minister Blair, and he remains to us, the most unpopular Brit. He is not welcome anywhere in Britain in spite of those (behind the scenes) who used him to serve them, using media to try to change
public opinion - but we don't buy it. He is a scumbag of the first order.

Only the US loves him because he was ordered by those who rule to kiss Bush's arse and he dutifully obeyed for a handful of silver.

We have thrown out the idea of identity cards. We are returning some of our freedoms that suffered by pressure from the US after that 'false flag' 7/11 that has taken so many American ones.
England abolished slavery, and slave trading before the US. Nor did we separate black from white within Britain.

In other words, do not try teach the enkightened about freedom until you understand its meaning and follow it for all mankind.

Never underestimate the guts, and ability of the people of this tiny island. We know, as we have seen here right in our island that cultures can live, and express themselves, side by side even within one larger family of nations. History, sometimes, has taught us the hard way. But we can either learn from history or ignore.

But we are also aware that there are those seeking power who will try to exploit difference
for their own ends. And the media is the weapon the use.


Last edited by R N on Fri May 28, 2010 10:03 am; edited 1 time in total

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SOCIALISM, like Freedom depends on how it is practised, not its tag

Post  R N on Fri May 28, 2010 9:51 am

It is our interpretation, in the UK, of socialism which has helped to give us the freedom we cherish.

It is the actions of governments, not their banners they march under, that defines them.

The Russians were never communist according to Marx philosophy. What they were, God only knows. They are impossible to define now. China is certainly not communist, or socialist. or capitalist. To me they are trying to go along with the world's way that exists while trying to modify it with their Confucian values which have been embedded within their culture for centuries.

Socialsm to us is a society that atttempts to be fair to all segments, and in so doing incorporates an even handed justice system, and an economy that removes the fear of want of the necessities to sustain the cohesian of family life, including education and health.

We believe that we are not all created equal, that there will be differences in ability, and health even from genes. There will be periods when no matter how things are we are disadvantaged, and vulnerable. Therefore, as a society long removed from small community village life with constant extended family around, there must be provision by a system we have appointed to manage (let us call it government) that will ensure that no one suffers below an accepted minimum living standard.

We appreciate the difficulties of government to constantly, and consistantly, to provide this, and we make reasonable allowance.

However, when government moves away from these core principles, we dump it, as we have just seen. Now we have a coalition which we hope that one will provide a break on attempted excesses of the other.

Our Labour (Socialist) government under Blair had started to move away to the right. They now have to get back to those core values. Brown was a man caught between his embedded Christian values, and what he was directed to do by those who control the system. He will be a far happier man out of that office.

I believe that eventually we are not going to see any overnight revolution, but we are going to see changes being made for a more fairly balanced world - a fairer society. We will see changes (for the better) in the financial markets. But they will happen as a slow trend, not a fast one.

God bless you all.

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re: sweet talking nonsense

Post  Shelby on Fri May 28, 2010 2:23 pm

The socialists always have a sweet tongue, and nasty bite.

(this is in response to Ray's post at end of prior page of this thread)

I have a more concrete definition of socialism as presented in this thread, and a very concrete mathematical surety of its outcome (as summarized in the first sentence of this post).

As for Ray's prediction of the absense of fast change ahead, I expect there will soon be proof that he is wrong (if riots in Iceland and Greece are not enough proof already).

I mean only an idiot could look at the chart which shows that the govt has grown from 3% to 70 or 90% of GDP since 1903, to realize that there is no balance around a reasonable level for socialism. Socialism demands complete failure. (idiot is a strong word, but I mean really, how could anyone look at 70 - 90% of the economy being the govt and say that is anything but failure and the economic antithesis of freedom?)

Reading Ray's prior missive, I see nearly exact quotes from Marx.

Ray apologies for mis-stating that you are psychiatrist. I am happy to read that you are not. Nevertheless, there is some overlap between pyschology and pyschiatry, and that is enough for me, especially when you state that I am insane.

I find it very poignant that Ray is unable to define the differences between UK's socialistic system and Russia's. Actually they are exactly the same, taking from those who work, and giving to those who don't work. In short, collective theft.

wescal, I am not trying to say that I condone what happened at Waco. Why were those people idolizing a man and joining a cult (alllegedly allowing their children to be sexually abused by him)? The Bible is clear about the 2nd commandment. So although I don't condone what happened, the Bible is clear that there will be repurcussions for violating the 10 commandments. We reap what we sow. If those woman and children had been dispersed in their family homes, there is no way the govt could have done that if each of their families was armed. In other words, the Waco sect was a socialist (collective) action. Socialism always ends in complete failture (drill that simple rule into the brain and use it over and over to make correct decisions). Any way, it is a horrible situation all around, and I am by no means saying I condone what the govt did. Those who participated will also have repurcussions.

=======
Ray does not understand what freedom is. Freedom is the non-existence of collective action, rules, laws, etc. It is as simple as that. Socialists try to confuse the definitions, to try to get people to be confused about what freedom is. That is it mathematically. Period. End of story. If you want to expand on that, God gave us all the rules we need in the biblical law, that contains 10 simple rules. God told us in 1 Samuel 8 that he liberated us from slavery and that we would return to slavery if we choose to have a government.

What the USA govt does in Iraq is not freedom, because in freedom, there wouldn't be a govt.

There is no denying the math that UK is now bankrupt because of their socialism. UK won't be so nice of a place to be soon Ray.

And yes, many of us are leaving the USA, because the socialism has become very evident. Some may be blinded still, and not yet notice that UK is more socialist than the USA. I suspect some of them want to escape the TSA and other visible violations of human rights in USA, but they might not yet notice all those hidden cameras on every lampost and not realize what they will be used for in the future...

Ray you can change politicians a zillion times, and it won't change the fact that UK is being drained of all wealth by the banksters who own your politicians. Go look at the statistics on what % of the GDP the govt consumes and how bankrupt the UK is:

I reasonably sure that the UK was profiting off of the slave trade.

Be clear, that I detest the concept of nations. I am not defending USA, rather I am railing against socialism every where (and it is every where).

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Re: Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing?

Post  R N on Fri May 28, 2010 4:54 pm

".....Ray does not understand what freedom is. Freedom is the non-existence of collective action, rules, laws, etc. It is as simple as that....."

Ray does understand, but does not accept YOUR version. Ray also understands what is tautology. 'The expression, 'the same' means identical in every respect. The word 'exactly' therefore is superfluous.

The political system in Russia has changed since the 'Wall' came down and it opened its arms to the US version of 'democracy' (another highly misused word). It now wanders in the wilderness trying to find an identity.

But neither before, nor since, has it been the 'same' as in the UK. The UK has a long history of stable, government. This has been one of the benefits it taught and passed on to its colonies, most of which have retained this quality. They are among the world's most stable today even though they are no longer part of an Empire, and are self governed.

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Diversionary tactics

Post  Shelby on Fri May 28, 2010 5:03 pm

Nevertheless, you have not refuted my statement that socialism is "steal from those who work, and give to those who do not work".

Stealing from each other is not freedom. Thus I repeat, you do not know what freedom is.

I think many Americans got more from their Christian heritage and the native Americans, than they got from England. The legal system is corrupted, which is probably the main thing we inherited from you bloaks.

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Re: Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing?

Post  R N on Fri May 28, 2010 5:20 pm

There is no denying the math that UK is now bankrupt because of their socialism. UK won't be so nice of a place to be soon Ray.


The UK, and the USA and most, if not all, other nations have been bankrupt for centuries. They are owned and operated by their creditors. Their elected governments act as 'agents', for the owners.

Simple. Nothing complicated to uderstand. When, so called, democratic governments change and appear to present a different policy, it is merely the owners trying a different tack - the same way that when sailing one must change tack according to prevailing conditions.

What we are going through now, or in the past, is only complicated, and puzzling, if you try to see it differently. Which, for some reason, most people are bent to do.


Nevertheless, you have not refuted my statement that socialism is "steal from those who work, and give to those who do not work.


I refute your whole skewed philosophy. It is too time consuming to deal with everything. But if you like, I will oblige here by saying I TOTALLY refute that statement. And your last paragraph
is too ridiculous for words.

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refute means provide some logical basis

Post  Shelby on Fri May 28, 2010 6:01 pm

What all of these bankrupt countries have in common is they steal from people who work and give to those who do not work. In some cases it is done via "tax", which takes several forms, including the hidden inflation tax. In other cases, the theft from the savers (workers) is done by manipulation of the interest rates too low (by the manipulation of the gold price and using Communist China as a battering ram with a fixed Yuan peg slavery buyer of USTreasuries)

You have not been able to refute this fact. This is socialism by definition. And as predicted by entropy, they are all bankrupt because of it.

And you argue that we should continue this system? You champion its virtues? Are you a lunatic?

"ridiculous" is not a valid point in debate.

Ray just give up. You won't win this debate.

It seems you are resigned to slavery? You've thrown in the surrender towel to the "creditors"? Do you not understand the exponential function Ray? Do you not understand that humans can create more prosperity in a few years now than was created in all of human history? The world could cast away these creditors in a heartbeat, if not for people who want socialism.

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Re: Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing?

Post  R N on Fri May 28, 2010 7:29 pm

It would be an act of folly to even consider attempting to apply a logical refute to an illogical statement.

I have used up my quota of folly in even gracing this blog with my views of the reality, as opposed to your ramblings.

My views are based on historical research past and present, supported by what exists, not on some interpretation of the enigmatic, book of Revelations ( as in open to many interpretations) that can suit anyone suffering from religious mania in his attempt to support his wild efforts to extract himself from the proverbial hole he has dug himself into.

I am happy to let your other readers judge accordingly. If they agree with you, well let them follow your lead. They go with my blessings, as you do. There is room for all kinds in our world. I am tolerant.

As I have mentioned, there actually exists a 'Flat Earth Society (In the US, naturally)

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Again you try to bend what I wrote

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 3:29 am

I have written many times that my assertions are based on math and logic. Go back for example, to my very succinct definition of socialism and capital. And I have added the correlations to the Bible as additional sugar, that can be discarded without any harm to my points.

You have not even identified an illogical statement.

And as expected, you are unable to refute my math nor my logic nor the historical record (i.e. growth of govt from 3% to 70+% of GDP since 1903, failure of rome, failure of USSR, failure of Communist China, etc).

You have lost the debate, because socialism is a failure. This has been proven numeous times in the history of the world. And you claim to have studied history.

Ray I have been trying to understand how a person who is reasonably intelligient as yourself (although clearly not super intelligient), can ignore the historical record of socialism. It seems you think (correctly) that socialism is a fact of this world, and thus you have decided it is more practical to learn to live with it (perhaps you view me as impractical or in denial of reality, i.e. your repeated misassociation of me with "flat earth" theories). You seem to be in awe of the power of the failure of socialism (you think the creditors are in control, whereas it is proveably false, because they can not stop their ultimate failure at the end). You seem to have invented fantasies about different government systems, that socialism is not socialism by ignoring my succinct definition of it (in spite of the record of its failure, given your admission that all the nations with big governments are bankrupt, only the developing nations with small govt as % of GDP are not bankrupt).

I have stated that there is no way for me to propose to stop socialism. I have stated the best is for me to invest in the expectation of its exponential growth and ultimate implosion. Remember that life is fractal. There will be many shorter duration socialisms superimposed on longer wavelength (duration) socialism waves. I think i can not begin to have this discussion with you, because I think I am correct that you do not have formal training in higher math? If you do, then I can lift the discussion to a purely mathematical one, and maybe we can make some progress in your understanding.

=========
I hope you have not gotten hung up on tangential discussion that is irrelevant to the main point of this debate and thread. For example, your assertion that Americans got more from England than from the natives and Christianity. That is really not relevant to our debate. Perhaps you should visit the rural (outside the cities) southern states, and then you will probably learn that what I wrote is true. I did not write "all or majority", I wrote "many".

As with all oppressive systems, the outer facade may appear to be dictated by the central power, but the reality is much different on the ground in the daily life of the subjects.

Besides, USA had migration and influences from many European countries, not just England. I have observed this UK arrogance towards USA numerous times in my life. It is good thing you guys don't visit the hinterlands spouting that, you might get a nice beating in some of the more hardcore "redneck" areas (I am not condoning violence, I am just suggesting don't try to test your assertion that my logic about "many" is illogical).


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Amazing

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 3:53 am

What is really unfathomable to me is how someone who has a functioning brain stem, can support socialist systems?

Is it flat out denial of the historical record and mathematical certainty of the failure of collective action? Or it is some kind of fantasy? Or is it the inability to understand where collective action leads every time? Or is it a resignation to having to live within what one is comfortable with? I suppose it is the latter, with droppings of the former three in order to coax the emotions and brain along. Not just you Ray, I have observed many people suffer from this mental condition. It seems westerners really are in love with their modern conveniences (including credit) and they are incapable of visualizing them without a government (or with a much smaller govt as % of GDP).

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I should...

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 4:11 am

..take this opportunity to learn more how a socialist's mind works.

Ray would you be willing to share with me (and readers), the virtues of the system you live in and how you think it will benefit you for the rest of your life? Does it give you some assurances?

If you want to end the debate, and just move to a discovery period where we try to learn as much as we can about what drives the mentality of socialism, then that would be fruitful in my opinion. May help to identify some things that help both of our understandings in our respective philosophies.

You may have similar question for me?

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Science of happiness may apply here...

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 5:23 am

Found this interesting and potentially relevant to our discussion:

http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/speech/bernanke20100508a.htm

Fed Chairman Bernanke wrote:beyond the level where basic needs such as food and shelter are met, people don't report being any happier. For example, although today most Americans surveyed will tell you they are happy with their lives, the fraction of those who say that they are happy is not any higher than it was 40 years ago, when average incomes in the United States were considerably lower and few could even imagine developments like mobile phones or the Internet. Second, he found that--again, once you get above a basic sustenance level--on average, people in rich countries don't report being all that much happier than people in lower-income countries. The finding that people in rich countries don't report much greater happiness than those in lower-income countries--even though, in any given country, the rich say they are happier than the poor do--is called the Easterlin paradox

Bernanke thinks happiness can be fine-tuned by statistical central management:

Fed Chairman Bernanke wrote:One application of this insight--and this is just an example of the type of research connected with the "economics of happiness" that may bear policy insights--involved a program in Canada in which recipients of employment insurance or income assistance were offered jobs in community development and opportunities to develop a social network.14 Being unemployed is stressful, not just because of loss of income but also because of feelings of loss of control and diminished self-worth. But individuals who participated in these opportunities reported higher satisfaction than those who did not. Further study could shed light on the effectiveness of alternative approaches to traditional unemployment insurance programs.

More generally, economic policymakers should pay attention to family and community cohesion. All else equal, good economic policies should encourage and support stable families and promote civic engagement. And to help people feel in control of their own destinies, policies should respect the autonomy of individuals, families, and communities to make their own decisions whenever possible, as research has confirmed the intuitive notion that individual freedoms contribute to life satisfaction.

Amazing to me that Bernanke can deny the findings of research, which show that individual freedoms are paramount to happiness. Seems he believes it may be possible to statistically engineer freedom by central economic planners. But then that means even with his 1600 SAT IQ, he does not understand the mathematical fact that any centrally engineered system can never be as free as one where all the actors make their own spontaneous decisions. It can be proven from the equation of entropy or it can be reasoned from the common sense of the delay in the feedback loop between measurement, policy enactment, and results.

And this is always the failure in the thinking of these elitests. They do not comprehend the basic law of nature- ENTROPY.

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Re: Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing?

Post  R N on Sat May 29, 2010 5:45 am

. It is good thing you guys don't visit the hinterlands spouting that, you might get a nice beating in some of the more hardcore "redneck" areas (I am not condoning violence, I am just suggesting don't try to test your assertion that my logic about "many" is illogical).


First, lets get one thing VERY clear. I have probably seen, and even worked, in more areas of the US than you, and certainly all Americans with whom I have had contact - they have said so when we have conversed.

That is East and West coasts and four corners right up to the borders.

I have certainly also seen more of the world, as Americans have a very low take of passports.

GOT THAT!

I lived and worked in the US for a total of around 10 years.

I am more conversant with US history, than most Americans. One young American girl was so surprised at what I told her about affairs, and military engagements by Americans with the Indians that she informed her teacher the following day.

She had been particularly aroused by my account of the 'battle of wounded knee'. She could not believe they would massacre the Indians like that.

Her teacher had to admit that this was so, and was surprised she knew so much detail.

I have visited many US historical sites - including Gettysburg,
Little Big Horn, Saratoga, Valley Forge.

(I have also seen Omaha Beach, and Okinawa battle areas)

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So have I Ray

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 5:48 am

I hope you aware of the Trail of Tears... (as the Rothchilds and Morgans said, "by conquest or by...", they will use any means to attain their greed, even inciting war and genocide)

Any way, I have also lived in communities in USA where my family were the only white people.

I have traveled by car in nearly every state in the southern half.

I have also travel by bus and later by my own car, down through Mexico, Guatemala. Columbia. Philippines, Hawaii. I have been in Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, Australia. I was high in the mountains in Guatemala living with a family with no floor, where the dogs would eat my warm shit as soon as it hit the ground on a frigid night. I was in Chiapas in 1993, just before the uprising in Mexico. Etc......

I attended 10 different schools before graduating high school.

In summers around age 7 or so, I visited my relatives in hilly outback of alabama, where they didn't even have electricity yet. I was born in 1965.

I did the tour of Virginia, WA DC area also at the 1776 bicentineal....

I failed to correct one of your prior gross errors. The USA was not owned by creditors for "centuries", as we were on a gold & silver money standard until 1900s and savers were very prosperous:

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article16212.html

Any way, tell me your key insight from those travels?

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Re: Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing?

Post  R N on Sat May 29, 2010 6:19 am

Incidentally, the early British settlers built up a very good relationship with the native Indians,

The problems only started to emerge when the French enlisted some tribes to help them when they were backing the colonists in the hope that they could oust the Brits, or English as they were referred to at the time, irrespective of whether they were Welsh or Scots.

After the establishment of th US the problems came as they began to treat, and brand, Indians as sub human. They also stole their food and their lands. Administrators consistanly cheated them with lies - hence the phrase - Paleface speak with forked tongue (little has changed with politicians)

It is said that the word 'Yankee' comes from the early Indian corrupt proninciatoion of English ('yankleesh').

Pocahontas is buried near here, just along the river Thames, at Gravesend.

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Yes and same in Philippines...

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 6:24 am

Natives were tricked into signing over their acres of land for a mirror, and tricked by shell games and other ways...

Socialism is the not solution that restore fairness. If you are so concerned and interested in human rights, then why you do promote the Marx creed that "to each according to his need, from each according to his ability". It is nearly what you wrote in a prior post. Stealing from those who work, is not the way to restore ethics and fairness.

Yes the first Pilgrims would have not survived the winter without the indian advice and aid. They taught them to plant a fish with their corn, etc.. That is what the Thanksgiving holiday is supposed to be about (recently I think Americans may have forgotten).

Ray you will discover that I am person who wants the utmost fairness-- the right of people to keep what they work for.


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Re: Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing?

Post  R N on Sat May 29, 2010 6:38 am

I failed to correct one of your prior gross errors. The USA was not owned by creditors for "centuries", as we were on a gold & silver money standard until 1900s and savers were very prosperous:

But who owned the gold? Who financed the revolution? Britain was in the hands of its 'creditors' when the US was still a colony. The whole revolution had nothing to do with taxes and tea parties. It was part of the 'International Bankers' to establish full control of what they saw as the real 'Promised Land' (for them).

A hundred years later the US was put further into the hands of its creditors by a costly civil war. Why do you think Lincoln was assassinated?

Wake up Shelby.

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re: continual progression, but bankruptcy proveably was not yet in 1930

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 6:57 am

R N wrote:
I failed to correct one of your prior gross errors. The USA was not owned by creditors for "centuries", as we were on a gold & silver money standard until 1900s and savers were very prosperous:

But who owned the gold? Who financed the revolution? Britain was in the hands of its 'creditors' when the US was still a colony. The whole revolution had nothing to do with taxes and tea parties. It was part of the 'International Bankers' to establish full control of what they saw as the real 'Promised Land' (for them).

A hundred years later the US was put further into the hands of its creditors by a costly civil war. Why do you think Lincoln was assassinated?

Wake up Shelby.

I agree with the concept that there is has a been a continual theft, and transfer of the gold, from the people to the bankster, as they were able to instill their credit system in the USA. Andrew Jackson beat them back down for a little while, then as you say, they used the civil war to get the upper hand again.

Remember that the New World was financing Europe, not the other way around. All that new gold, silver, and other raw materials...

But the fact remains that those who saved in 1800s were 33,900% more profitable than those in the 1900s:

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article16212.html

And the other fact remains that (as documented by Howard Katz) from 1929 to 1933 before FDR confiscated the gold and took the country off of a circulating gold standard, that Americans were eating more butter and gaining more prosperity during the start of the Great Depression. The reason is because they were holding gold.

Of course after 1934, the americans no longer owned the gold at all and were set on inflationary spiral of bankruptcy. It actually got started in 1913 with the enactment of the Fed, and yes you are correct to point to those earlier events as laying the foundation, including the expansion of credit by the private banks in the 1800s.

People love usury. Usury demands socialism, because usury is guaranteed failure. I have shown that mathematically.

Nevertheless, the bankruptcy point wasn't fully realized in effect (in terms of the elites ability to impoverish the SAVERS at will) until 1934. After 1934, SAVERS were crushed.

You don't need to keep saying "Wake up". I am very aware of the power the banksters have that began centuries ago. I am talking in terms of actual turning points of significance. 33,900% for savers is a big difference between 1800s and 1900s. Can you refute that number?

It is important that we establish that, because we are at another big turning point now. You may be under-estimating the significance of what is about to happen now?

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I am attacking you?

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 7:09 am

I think I am. Because I am trying to label you as a socialist. And you have tried to label me as insane and other remarks.

I don't like to attack someone. My feeling and sense is that you support govt theft via the various means of taxation. You support a social care system. Etc.

Well if so, then you are trying to steal from me. So of course, I will hate you.

People are very charitable when you don't steal from them.

We don't need govt stealing from us and giving it to the banksters instead.

Mankind is so enormously productive with current technology, if we could just cast away the bankster socialism system, we would all have 100 times more than we have now. The elite are currently siphoning off 99+% of all of our productivity, most lost through waste (destruction of capital!), and the rest as incideous wealth transfer to them.

I am a reasonable person. I want the utmost fairness and to stop losing our productivity to the bankster mismanagement. Refer back to my post of Bernanke's myopia in the Science of Happiness.

Bernanke 1600 SAT, but apparently an utter idiot with his hands on the cockpit controls. I remember a few like him in my high school. Eggheads, but no common sense. The elite probably selected him because he is smart enough to do effectively what they want done and he is enamored with the love of what he does, but lacking the common sense to understand the implications of what he is doing and thus of no threat to the elite.

I wish I could talk to Bernanke privately. I would be very interested to see how he could counter my logic.


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Re: Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing?

Post  R N on Sat May 29, 2010 7:19 am

Nevertheless, the bankruptcy point wasn't fully realized in effect (in terms of the elites ability to impoverish the SAVERS at will) until 1934. After 1934, SAVERS were crushed
.

When something actually happens, or exists, and when it is 'fully realised' are constantly at variance.

This is the whole point of my argument.

Had their power of 'creditor' not existed, they could not have brought in these changes which made things a little more transparent. They always move (exert their power) in stages.

You know the saying 'how do you eat an elephant?' Answer: 'One bite at a time'

As for Katz. I have challenged Howard Katz on more than one occasion. You and he agree on most things. I see where your thinking comes from.

I will send you my last communication to him, which was the other day, where i challenged him last.

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My last response to Howard Katz

Post  R N on Sat May 29, 2010 7:26 am

"......As Jewish citizens were ostracized from most professions by local rulers, the church and the guilds, they were pushed into marginal occupations considered socially inferior, such as tax and rent collecting and moneylending. Natural tensions between creditors and debtors were added to social, political, religious, and economic strains. ...financial oppression of Jews tended to occur in areas where they were most disliked, and if Jews reacted by concentrating on moneylending to non-Jews, the unpopularity — and so, of course, the pressure — would increase. Thus the Jews became an element in a vicious circle........

I responded as follows


Howard, do not twist history. The mass of Jewish people, and you very well know this, have suffered as the result of being tarnished by the few among them who from biblical times used 'money' trading in various forms, particularly 'lending' to gain advantage and build a power structure that would help further, and protect, them in their nefarious activities.

It was the Sanhedrin (Jewish High Priests) who built a financial empire from 'tithing' the Jewish people, who gave under the belief they were really 'giving to G-d', and further to permitting the Temple to be used by the 'money changers' (for a cut of their take) who short changed the Jewish people in their transactions.

It was this which, one day, enraged an itinerant Jewish rabbi to take physical action against them, throwing them out of the Temple and tipping over their tables of trade.

Two weeks later He had been tried and executed.

Whether there is at least a core of truth in the New Testament or not, there is certainly a core of historical fact. It is the same with the story of Robin Hood, a composite figure based on historical fact of the times - the poor were down trodden, leached upon, many became outlaws. So what's new!


What happened was the Jewish people all got tarred by the same brush. And this has been encouraged by the Elite. Why?Because the Jewish people will then cough up more for protection. And it will huddle them closer together for the same reason.

Some will also find screaming 'discrimination' where none exists brings benefits, as do many people who are seen as 'the wrong colour'.

Now, all Muslims are being portrayed as potential 'terrorists'.

Anti-Semitism has NOTHING to do with religion, nor for the behaviour of the mass of genuine Jewish people of religious faith or true cultural heritage.. (As opposed to those who 'become' Jewish as though they are joining the Masons.

So please Howard, do not twist history to support your views, nor blanket a whole culture by grouping all with - 'The Jews'.
There is as much diversity among Jewish people as with any
culture, or nation.

One of my most enjoyable holidays I spent just recently in Israel. A country which has been maligned by the actions of its government, and a few others.

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bravo!

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 7:55 am

Very good retort. I have also retorted Katz's twisting of the New Testament, and his assertion that Jesus came to spread a lie about love (Jesus said he came with a sword).

Very good point about some of Jews being given positions of power, because they pay up. Pussies (or more accurately they fornicate with the Harlots predicted 1000+ years ago in Revelations).

Many Jews may share some traits due to history of persecution, etc..., but agreed not wise to attribute negative qualities to all Jews. But I would need to study the specific allegations. It is not an area of study that I have focused.

Katz seems to lose logic and get overly commited to his Sadduce Jew status. But on gold itself, he seems to have correct logic.


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