How will we physically trade gold & silver at $5000 & $500?

Click to the prior page #6 in this thread, to read the prior post I wrote earlier today.

For buying CoinATM grams, delivering in bars or rounds, redeeming rounds for grams, and cashing out grams, then you will NOT have to provide any identification. You will simply wire the funds, as I already explained the pertainent regulations and laws for GoldWeTrust.com (same ones apply):

GoldWeTrust.com/?faq#privacy wrote:12. Privacy?

Only your "Display Name" is revealed publicly. All other personal information is only revealed to authorities with a court order or as required by law. Your email address is not revealed when another user sends you email, as we provide email address aliases and forward emails between users of our site. It is our understanding that since we receive all incoming payments via wire transfer (or checks less than $10,000 per related transaction), then we are NOT required to report them on IRS Form 8300. And it is our understanding that since we do not barter metal-for-metal exchanges, then we are NOT required to report them on IRS Form 1099b.

Afaik, when you transfer grams to another CoinATM account, or to an email address which doesn't yet have a CoinATM account, that is when the Patriot Act, payment systems, and anti-money laundering regulations and laws come into play in the USA.

I think we can do what Paypal does, which is we increase the verification as you RECEIVE more grams than some threshold:

http://paypal.com

Why do Personal accounts have a receiving limit?
Question :
Answer :
Personal accounts are intended for personal use only and are not designed to be used for business purposes. PayPal considers the receiving of funds from eBay, auction, or website sales in excess of the Personal account limits to be beyond the normal level of personal use. By requiring Premier or Business accounts for all accounts that receive a large volume of payments from eBay, auction or website sales, PayPal ensures that all high activity selling accounts are treated similarly.

Your limit will be reset each month on the anniversary of the date your account was opened. For example, if your account was created on the 12th of the month, your limit will be reset on the 12th of every month. It will be displayed on the limits page of your account. To access your limits page, log in, go to your Account Overview, and click the View Limits link.

Is there a limit to the amount of payments Personal accounts can receive?
Question :
Answer :
Yes. Depending on the primary currency of the Personal account, the receiving limit is FORMAT ERROR$500.00 USD, $650.00 CAD, or €500.00 EUR. (The receiving limit is based on the primary currency of the account. If you receive payments in more than one currency, your limit will be calculated based on the total amount you receive each month – after the amount is converted into your primary currency. To view your Personal account limit, log in to your account and click the View Limits link.)

The receiving limit applies to the following payment types: eBay Items, Auction Non-eBay, and Goods-Other (Website sales). All applicable payments that exceed the monthly limit will be placed in accept/deny status until you upgrade your account to receive the payments or you choose to deny them. If no action is taken, the payment is returned to the buyer after 30 days. The limit is reset monthly.

Who is required to have a Premier or Business account?
Question :
Answer :
To accept unlimited credit or debit card payments, you must have a Premier or Business account. To have an account under a company or group name, you must have a Business account.

The three PayPal account types are designed to accommodate the different needs of our account holders:
Personal accounts are primarily for SENDING payments. Personal accounts pay a transaction fee to receive a limited number of payments funded by credit or debit card per year (see our fee schedule). To view your Personal account limit, log in to your account and click the View Limits link.
Premier accounts are for account holders who have a high transaction volume, need to accept credit or debit card payments, or need additional features.

Afaics bottom line is to be sure no investigative govt operative can attempt and succeed in laundering significant amount of $ through a payment system.

I am thinking it sufficient to let people send grams without being further identified. And further sufficient to allow people receiving grams to withdraw in coins in small amounts (say a few $100s per month), as long as they click a button certifying that they are shipping to their residence address. If they exceed thresholds, then we make them fax photo id and copy of bill, certifying their identity and their residence address. Also we should subject sending accounts and/or their recipients to extra verification, if they are sending more than $100s per month or are opening accounts where there is the sent egrams comprise more than say 10% of the egrams purchased.

The point is that if you use CoinATM.com to hold your own grams, deliver bars/rounds, and only send a few small gram payments or gifts occassionally, then you won't need to provide any identification. Or if you are only receive an occassional few small gram payments or gift, then you won't need to provide any identification.

The bottom line of the following research is that we will not have to apply anti-money laundering identification checks on anyone who buys grams or delivers bars/rounds! Excellent!

(see the prior post where as long as the incoming payments are wire transfers of any amount, or checks less than $10,000, then the sale of the grams and rounds can not be considered to trigger cash reporting requirements)

Also when you take delivery of rounds or sell rounds back for grams, CoinATM will be treating it as you have not bartered silver, but rather you have paid for a service to convert your silver from one form to another. Silver is silver and CoinATM to make it more fungible. You have not changed value, only paid a minting charge to change the shape of your silver (in both directions: bars <---> rounds). Consult your own tax advisor on whether you need to report it as a barter transaction or take capital gains or loss (I think not, but I must tell you to consult your own advisor as a disclaimer).

1. "Money laundering" defined in US Code:
   
   http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1956.html
   
   
2. CoinATM.com would NOT be a "commodity pool operator":
   
   http://www.cftc.gov/educationcenter/glossary/glossary_co.html
   
   

   Commodity Pool: An investment trust, syndicate, or similar form of enterprise operated for the purpose of trading commodity futures or option contracts. Typically thought of as an enterprise engaged in the business of investing the collective or “pooled” funds of multiple participants in trading commodity futures or options, where participants share in profits and losses on a pro rata basis.
   
   Commodity Pool Operator (CPO): A person engaged in a business similar to an investment trust or a syndicate and who solicits or accepts funds, securities, or property for the purpose of trading commodity futures contracts or commodity options. The commodity pool operator either itself makes trading decisions on behalf of the pool or engages a commodity trading advisor to do so.

   
   
   http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode07/usc_sec_07_00000001---a000-.html
   
   Commodity Exchange Act
   
   

   (5) Commodity pool operator
   The term “commodity pool operator” means any person engaged in a business that is of the nature of an investment trust, syndicate, or similar form of enterprise, and who, in connection therewith, solicits, accepts, or receives from others, funds, securities, or property, either directly or through capital contributions, the sale of stock or other forms of securities, or otherwise, for the purpose of trading in any commodity for future delivery on or subject to the rules of any contract market or derivatives transaction execution facility, except that the term does not include such persons not within the intent of the definition of the term as the Commission may specify by rule, regulation, or order.

   
   
   
3. ICTA Helped Thwart Legislation for CFTC Regulation of Coin Dealers in May 2008:
   
   http://www.coinnews.net/2008/05/15/icta-helps-thwart-proposal-for-cftc-regulation-of-coin-dealers-4096/
   
   
4. CoinATM.com would NOT be a "money service business" (gold & silver are not legal tender money, and do not store value in legal tender valuations):
   
   http://www.moneyservicesbusiness.com/Basics/Basics.html
   
   

   Money Services Businesses (MSBs) are a type of financial institution under the law. They are subject to regulatory oversight by the Internal Revenue Service and various state banking departments. They must comply with the Bank Secrecy Act as well as various state laws and regulations.
   
   Your business may be an MSB if...
   
   The business offers one or more of the following services:
   
   * money orders
   * traveler's checks
   * check cashing
   * currency dealing or exchange
   * stored value
   
   --- AND ---
   
   The business:
   
   * Conducts more than $1,000.00 in money services business activity with the same person (in one type of activity) on the same day
   
   --- OR ---
   
   The business:
   
   * Provides money transfer services in any amount.

   
   
   http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode31/usc_sec_31_00005330----000-.html
   
   Title 31 of US Code, Money & Finance (as amended by Patriot Act and others laws)
   
   

   (d) Definitions.— For purposes of this section, the following definitions shall apply:
   (1) Money transmitting business.— The term “money transmitting business” means any business other than the United States Postal Service which—
   (A) provides check cashing, currency exchange, or money transmitting or remittance services, or issues or redeems money orders, travelers’ checks, and other similar instruments or any other person who engages as a business in the transmission of funds, including any person who engages as a business in an informal money transfer system or any network of people who engage as a business in facilitating the transfer of money domestically or internationally outside of the conventional financial institutions system;; [1]
   (B) is required to file reports under section 5313; and
   (C) is not a depository institution (as defined in section 5313 (g)).
   (2) Money transmitting service.— The term “money transmitting service” includes accepting currency or funds denominated in the currency of any country and transmitting the currency or funds, or the value of the currency or funds, by any means through a financial agency or institution, a Federal reserve bank or other facility of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, or an electronic funds transfer network.

   
   
   http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=107_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ056.107.pdf
   
   Patriot Act
   
   

   SEC. 359. REPORTING OF SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITIES BY UNDERGROUND
   BANKING SYSTEMS.
   (a) DEFINITION FOR SUBCHAPTER.—Section 5312(a)(2)(R) of title
   31, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:
   ‘‘(R) a licensed sender of money or any other person
   who engages as a business in the transmission of funds,
   including any person who engages as a business in an
   informal money transfer system or any network of people
   who engage as a business in facilitating the transfer of
   money domestically or internationally outside of the
   conventional financial institutions system;’’.
   (b) MONEY TRANSMITTING BUSINESS.—Section 5330(d)(1)(A) of
   title 31, United States Code, is amended by inserting before the
   semicolon the following: ‘‘or any other person who engages as a
   business in the transmission of funds, including any person who
   engages as a business in an informal money transfer system or
   any network of people who engage as a business in facilitating
   the transfer of money domestically or internationally outside of
   the conventional financial institutions system;’’

   
   
   
5. CoinATM.com would NOT be a "precious metals dealer":
   
   First understand that before the Patriot Act, "precious metals dealer" were "financial institutions" and thus would be covered by the Patriot Act:
   
   http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode31/usc_sec_31_00005312----000-.html
   
   

   (2) “financial institution” means—
   ...
   (N) a dealer in precious metals, stones, or jewels;

   
   
   But the U.S. Treasury department exempted "retailers" who buy from "dealers" (or other "retailers" that buy from "dealers") who implement compliant anti-money laundering programs (or who buy & sell less than $50,000 in precious metals from other sources in prior calendar year):
   
   http://www.dhfco.com/uploads/Patriot%20Act%20Info%20Sheet.pdf
   http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/frn/pdf/pa_352_jewelry.pdf
   http://www.fincen.gov/antimoneylaundering060905.pdf
   
   So this means if we source our metal from compliant retailers and dealers, then as long as we are only selling grams and that metal (even if it has been minted into rounds), then we will be exempt from anti-money laundering program. This possibly explains why the Mint I use will only accept Comex bars and not silver shot. It also explains why Paypal has been locking accounts where it thinks the precious metal sold on eBay was not from a compliant source.
   
   This is interesting, because if we buy back the same rounds we sold to a person they will be a compliant retailer, because they bought them from CoinATM itself a compliant retailer, and we can reasonably assert that the metal is not a source of money laundering because it is the same metal (or an exact replacement, which means no value could have been laundered)! This means you as a customer have an incentive to buy your rounds from CoinATM.com, because your rounds will not later be subject to "money laundering" identification checks (that may be performed by other retailers and dealers in future when people sell back bullion), if you resell them to CoinATM as we will not need to perform such checks, because we know we sold you the compliant rounds previously (even though we haven't had to implement an identification checks on you).
   
   

I think it is a go.

I won't give an ETA. I will simply announce if the site is ready.

I expect to do something much superior to current GoldWeTrust.com and very simple and powerful look & feel. I hope to get an immediate positive reaction and useage. I am envisioning the site now and I can see it is so direct to the point. But rather than enumerate here in forum, I will hopefully just implement.

I am traveling right now, so a bit haphazard for writing website code. May be a week delay.

I would launch CoinATM with over 10,000 oz of 1 oz rounds in stock for sale with the click of a button. I decided it will be optional whether to buy grams or go direct to rounds.

When buying rounds directly (not grams first), you will wire before lockin price, then any extra that you don't spend on rounds, you will get grams. So if you want to the most rounds you can get for the money you wired, then you will not get more than 0.999 oz (31 grams) in grams (or less than $12). My prices on rounds will be so much lower than everyone else, that this 1oz left in grams won't be hindrance. I will be much more aggressive than GoldMoney.com in getting vendors to accept grams. I will use Paypal's method, where you can pay people in grams simply by sending to their email address. I will develop my own businesses to sell you things in grams if necessary, i.e. things you all need such as domain registrations, sending flowers, fractional silver ounce jewelry gifts, etc...

GoldMoney is so slow. We can move this forward much faster just by doing some simple things.

P.S. I know how I will deal with the anti-money laundering compliance for sending e-grams. Senders won't provide any id. Recipients will only if the amount is significant or as the service grows popular enough that it would be a target for laundering. By that time the site will have enough momentum.

I think I know now how the govt plans to trap the buyers of bullion. They've been making exceptions to the Patriot Act to allow us to buy bullion anonymously perhaps with a specific purpose! Read...

Shelby wrote:...5. CoinATM.com would NOT be a "precious metals dealer":

First understand that before the Patriot Act, "precious metals dealer" were "financial institutions" and thus would be covered by the Patriot Act:

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode31/usc_sec_31_00005312----000-.html

(2) “financial institution” means—
...
(N) a dealer in precious metals, stones, or jewels;

But the U.S. Treasury department exempted "retailers" who buy from "dealers" (or other "retailers" that buy from "dealers") who implement compliant anti-money laundering programs (or who buy & sell less than $50,000 in precious metals from other sources in prior calendar year):

http://www.dhfco.com/uploads/Patriot%20Act%20Info%20Sheet.pdf
http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/frn/pdf/pa_352_jewelry.pdf
http://www.fincen.gov/antimoneylaundering060905.pdf

So this means if we source our metal from compliant retailers and dealers, then as long as we are only selling grams and that metal (even if it has been minted into rounds), then we will be exempt from anti-money laundering program. This possibly explains why the Mint I use will only accept Comex bars and not silver shot. It also explains why Paypal has been locking accounts where it thinks the precious metal sold on eBay was not from a compliant source.

This is interesting, because if we buy back the same rounds we sold to a person they will be a compliant retailer, because they bought them from CoinATM itself a compliant retailer, and we can reasonably assert that the metal is not a source of money laundering because it is the same metal (or an exact replacement, which means no value could have been laundered)! This means you as a customer have an incentive to buy your rounds from CoinATM.com, because your rounds will not later be subject to "money laundering" identification checks (that may be performed by other retailers and dealers in future when people sell back bullion), if you resell them to CoinATM as we will not need to perform such checks, because we know we sold you the compliant rounds previously (even though we haven't had to implement any identification checks on you).

So this means that dealers which buy now more than $50,000 worth of bullion from the public, are subject to implement anti money laundering procedures. Imagine in the future, the Treasury dept issues a more strict guidleline (in 2005 they made the guideline above that reduced the exemption to the $50,000), which will probably state that when buying bullion from the public, the source of that bullion must be verified to not have come from a money laundering source. This means the public seller is going to need to prove he bought the bullion from a source that was in compliance at the time, proof that the specific bullion was delivered to him originally, proof that his identity matches the identity on the prior 2 proofs, etc.. If you think the noose of the Patriot Act is static and not tightening, then Google, "gift cards money laundering".

I envision a situation where publicly held bullion becomes declared basically illegal due to money laundering laws. This will probably coincide with a new "terrorist" event in USA as the economy worsens (probably random snipers, used to justify tighter control over gun ownership in USA, so the people can't rise up to protest policies of Obama as results worsen). Also remember the point of this thread is that physically trading bullion will be limited by how it can scale in your personal life realistically.

So the "cabal" (existing political/corporate mainstream) I bet plans to make our bullion essentially useless. They want you either in an ETF, GoldMoney, or if you go into bullion then you won't be able to trade it (except in small quantities locally at your risk) and won't be able to move it across borders or perhaps even road checkpoints (searching for sniper terrorists or their bullion funding) within the country.

So this is a reason I am creating CoinATM.com. I want you to be able to keep your cash in grams, where you know you can get the bars/coins within 48 hours, but as long as we have the bars, we can certify they came from compliant sources, then you can continue to trade and sell these compliant with the potential scenario in prior paragraphs. And if you take delivery of rounds, we will have a record that you took delivery from us and thus that your rounds are compliant. I think we can make a class-action proof of the reasonable nature of this in court if necessary. I think govt will support CoinATM, because we will work with them to make sure we are compliant (even though we are really always on your side as much as we can be). And it will be my goal to make you as liquid as can be with your precious metals, that you hold in grams and/or as rounds delivered from CoinATM. I am trying to create this for myself, because I need it, because I am in the same boat as all of you. I will also be working on an international capability, so we can diversify geograpically (political jurisdiction).

I think by holding a record of what you bought from us and our strict compliance on our sources of silver going forward in large volume, then holding rounds from CoinATM will be the most compliant safety net forward for holding physical bullion.

Someone needs to be working on liquidity and "cabal" compliance for us. To say you can simply walk away from society is not realistic. Remember one man is not an island, and so getting your bullion and burying it, is the worst thing that can be done in the Biblical story of the talents. Afaik, God was not pleased.

And now you know what kind of article I will write to promote CoinATM at financialsense.com and gold-eagle.com, which will likely get syndicated far and wide (as my prior article did). Which may cause a mad scurrying by investors to sell their bullion and get into compliant bullion sources.

I am working on ideas of how to professionally write up the prior post for publishing to to prominent gold and silver websites.

I do not like the concept of paper certification for bullion, but the reality of the Patriot Act is one that can be ignored at a fool's folly. Whether it be the silver rocket shot above $21 and -60% take down below $9 several months into this great disintegration, or the allowance of junior mining stock pump & dumping with inferred guesstimates on economics for Canadian listings, or the recent ridiculous "rhino horn" (premiums coming down now) in premiums paid for uncompliant bullion, the silver and gold bugs appear to be ripe for juicing (fleecing) and seem eager to walk into traps. Probably helps to make a gambler feel righteous or better about his losses, by throwing a little religious dogma in the marketing strategy.

Fact is that Patriot Acts and broad anti-money laundering (AML) powers have been given to just about every govt around the world. Appears there have been temporary exemptions created for public buying of bullion, and in general it seems no one is keeping much track of which bullion is coming from AML-compliant sources, and tracking the identities/accounts of public who have compliant bullion. Sounds like a perfect recipe for another massive fleecing trap for gold and silver bugs. Let them buy all their "false idols" trinkets, paying 20% and 30% premiums (meaning they get 20% and 30% less metal), then at the end remove the exemptions and allow the full force of the Patriot Acts AML render their bullion essentially worthless for trading or redemption. It would probably only take a few snipers all of the country shooting randomly and uncaught, to rally the public behind gun restrictions, money laundering enforcement, and the road and financial check (choke) points. Doesn't Revelations say the people will throw their gold into the street, and the Revelations will come unexpectedly for those who don't recognize the signals?

I don't like it, but that is the reality. I don't see the govt and Patriot Act failing (when the dollar does), rather I see them getting stronger as the bulk of the population and local govts beg for federal govt help. I don't see a complete disintegration into anarchy, rather the will of the public-at-large will be win (moving back to farms and Dark Ages will not win), meaning that the rebalancing of the world economy will take place, gold will be the unit of account, but just like what happened in Europe, the western public will be appeased to rebalancing by stealing from the haves and sharing with the havenots via a capital controlled shift to Amero (the USA for example will be in a decades long slide into socialism and there will be no quick recovery of manfacturing or enterprise as the public theft via govt and govt jobs will become the only boom in the economy until rock bottom is hit from several years or more from now). The rebalancing will be a boom in credit and usury for developing nations. The key point is that only the big capitalists will really be free in the coming gold system. Gold will be used for international trade, but internally the social baggage of nations will keep the people of nations on a regulatory treadmill that prevents them from making any headway with honest weights & measure. I aim to try to open a releave valve for freedom by working compliantly within the future reality I see.

The other options for investors have been ETFs, which (think Enron, Mortgage Back Derivatives, and Bernie Madoff) in fine print do not guarantee to have the metal, GoldMoney & BullionVault which for all practical purposes force you to take your value in and out via the fiat banking system (do not practically allow delivery of compliant metal to you), and a few dubious e-metals services such as e-gold, which has been subject of govt enforcement action and as a result afaik now has similar drawbacks. All of these options seem easily subjected to any coming capital controls designed to redistribute from those with net worth, to the society-at-large.

I finally deduced that the only way to beat the system is to work within the system compliantly to change it via popularity (See Romans 13 or is it 17?). War is the last option, not the first one. So I am creating CoinATM.com to enable buying of AML compliant silver at currently 5% premiums (and gold at 1%) and have it stored for you in a reputable private vault in USA, with your silver being deliverable into bars/rounds within 48 hours or less. Couple this with an offer to buy back previously delivered compliant silver and gold near currently spot, i.e. the lowest spreads and lowest prices in the industry, coupled with the best safety net against possible outcomes of capital controls, and AML regulatory changes, and even the convenience to have some of your metal held for you and spendable with a click of a button to any person's email address. In this way, hopefully a large segment of the population can be invested in metal AML compliantly and with the option to take 100% delivery should the govt push too far, and as a powerful carrot and stick to use to keep the govt within reason. Let's join together to be a force in the market of public opinion, and be in a strong position of both compliance, peace, and intelligient leverage against bad outcomes.

GoldMoney has improved their id verification, but you won't even have to do id verification with CoinATM.com:

http://www.indianahonestmoney.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=123:goldmoney-streamlines-account-opening&catid=87:g-s-investing&Itemid=53

Specific features compared, and please vote which one is best:

http://goldwetrust.up-with.com/precious-metals-f6/which-website-name-is-best-for-new-bullion-service-t73.htm#838

...wake up to reality:

See the prior post also in this thread that I made some months ago.

Hommel usually ends up figuring out what I write about, about 6 - 18 months after I write it. I have so many examples already. I won't re-enumerate.

In any case, Hommel still thinks that physical silver will come back as money in USA:

http://silverstockreport.com/2009/logistics.html


I disagree, because 50+% of the population doesn't want it. They want the govt to take care of them, they don't want to go backwards to a physical economy. People don't change that fast. The cabal will provide a new system for them, with a digitally (credit card) backed Amero. The remaining middle class will pay for it via taxation and insideous forms (not overt) confiscation/controls.

If silver came back to USA in general, it would be after a long period of suffering in communism. The masses would have to capitulate to utter failure after years of govt theft from the "haves".

So silver as money, is not something that is going to quickly come. And by the time the masses are ready to capitulate, the cabal will have offer an Amero solution and a new world system backed by gold.

Instead, the place where silver may be used as money is in Asia. The reason is because Asia is 80+% still on a cash system. There is no way to get Asia all the way to the digital age fast enough for this crisis. However, the govts could just as easily make a paper currency backed by gold as China as announced at G20 meeting. Jim Willie said in video interview this week, that the Chinese has been hoarding silver, something I told Hommel in 2006 and Hommel said I was wrong because China was exporting silver. China was also exporting gold, but they just announced they had kept 1/3 of their production for the govt reserves.

Remember due to the Revelations, the world can never move backwards. Silver as money will happen if at all, where the people are still backwards.

In USA, what will happen is silver will rise to a very great value due to the demand for it in Asia (industrial, investment, and possibly as coin again but doubtful), but the Americans will sell their silver as the dollars goes to 0, and the govt will tax the sales at like 90%. This will complete the draining of the precious metals from USA.

Can any one present an alternative logic? How can you get 50+% of the population to change? Come on, think realistically. People don't change that fast. Use Katrina as an example. People will stick to their patterns and wait for the govt.

As for the importance of silver in making an economy function, it is only true when the govt is stealing. But in Asia, the govts are becoming less corrupt. They are making many reforms and China will back the new currencies with gold digitally (they announced this recently at G20 meeting). So the growth in Asia will not be inhibited by bad govts and bad currency. So it is possible that silver won't even come back as money in Asia, but I think the physical currency is still important here, and I think during times of currency upheavel, it is possible that the people will on their own revert to using silver again (even if govt does not).

Where in USA, I don't see 50+% people reverting to anything. I see them sticking with the govt lies, for as long as the govt theft can give them a life better than the life of the 3rd world. They will not choose a parachute. They will not choose honesty, because it would mean first they must go back to life of dirt and rebuild from dirt. People would prefer a long slide down into the dirt. People don't change easily (actually rarely ever). Think about it from your own perspective-- would you give up your life now and go into a life of living with a dirt floor and cooking with wood just so you could return to your honest value in the world? No! People will keep what they have, for as long as they can, even if it means they support govt theft. Silver as money is about honest values. USA people have no incentive for honest value, because they are worthless than the 3rd world. Common horse sense.

I know Hommel well enough, that I know he thinks the upper middle class will drive the outcome. He thinks there is still much wealth in USA, and that people will act to safeguard their wealth and honesty will return by necessity. But I think the masses drive the outcome, they are the counter-party to the elite super wealthy cabal. The masses don't want honesty, and by necessity they can not have honesty, because the honest truth is they are bankrupt and need to live for a few years with dirt floors. Rather the masses will choose delayed sacrifice (they always do), and let the cabal enslave them instead. That is the message in Revelations.

Yes there are 6 billion people outside the West, who will bring on a new period of great wealth. The West will bottom because of that. The cabal can manage the distribution of that new wealth, such that the masses in West remain appeased, while driving the overall system towards enslavement. The developing world has to move through a period of increased wealth (and some freedom) in order to get to the final outcome of Revelations. Thus Hommel is correct about the intervening period of great wealth and prosperity before the final enslavement. But the West will not move to that with physical currency. The West is will simple carried along for the ride (the caboose) as Europe has been by USA. The next battle ground is developing world. Satan is working very hard now here in Asia. He is winning. He is breaking down the culture and trading wealth for sin. Remember Satan does not win anything permanent-- instead he wins his own destruction and all the souls he destroys (the lake of fire, versus the narrow gate of heaven).

The USA will slide down into a socialism morass. It will bottom and then level off as Europe did after WW2.

Within the USA, there will be pockets of growth markets. For example, the govt will grow in some regions, I heard that govt hiring near the border is increasing and business for some is doing well there.

USA and Mexico will be joined, this will be a big growth market. I expect the violence in Mexico to end when the 2 countries are joined. The violence is being fostered by the cabal to drive the desire for a union and peace. Remember that drugs are the realm of the cabal. I hope you all know that the big banks have their fingers in drugs all over the world.

A wildcard in my current thinking is the propensity of Mexico (and latin america) to use silver as money?

Shelby wrote:See the prior post also in this thread that I made some months ago.

Hommel usually ends up figuring out what I write about, about 6 - 18 months after I write it. I have so many examples already. I won't re-enumerate.

In any case, Hommel still thinks that physical silver will come back as money in USA:

http://silverstockreport.com/2009/logistics.html


I disagree, because 50+% of the population doesn't want it. They want the govt to take care of them, they don't want to go backwards to a physical economy. People don't change that fast. The cabal will provide a new system for them, with a digitally (credit card) backed Amero. The remaining middle class will pay for it via taxation and insideous forms (not overt) confiscation/controls.

If silver came back to USA in general, it would be after a long period of suffering in communism. The masses would have to capitulate to utter failure after years of govt theft from the "haves".

So silver as money, is not something that is going to quickly come. And by the time the masses are ready to capitulate, the cabal will have offer an Amero solution and a new world system backed by gold...

...USA and Mexico will be joined, this will be a big growth market...

...A wildcard in my current thinking is the propensity of Mexico (and latin america) to use silver as money?

SUBJECT: Potentially largest untapped market for bullion buyers in USA

Jason, here is one parting gift of an idea, because I want to share "God bless you" with an action. This has been on my mind for past weeks.

Americans bought 1.5 BILLION rounds of ammunition in December 2008, in just 3 months Americans bought enough guns to outfit the entire Chinese and Indian armies combined:

http://www.infowars.com/in-just-3-months-americans-bought-enough-guns-to-outfit-the-entire-chinese-and-indian-armies-combined/

I have read there are 3 million Americans who are hard-core gun owners (you can pry their gun from their cold dead hand only).


If they indeed plan to fight the US govt, (which I think is inevitable because TPTB are determined to destroy the US dollar within next 3 years or less), then you might be able to explain to them that they will also need something to use as money (as the dollar will be in chaos) while they are fighting. Using bits of gold shot (or other non-fungible, perishable, bulky barter goods) won't be practical for every day barter, so durable silver coins of various demonimations is going to be in high demand in that scenario.

I think most of them are of the INSULAR pyschology to buy gold (not so mch silver), stock up on food, and defend their home space. They don't want to build trade, while they are fighting. Thus by definition, from the start of their fight, TPTB will have won with the oldest strategy of war (divide-and-conquer), as without growing trade, they will wither away and the masses won't be inspired to join them (masses are cows who follow who can fatten them). Telling them not to prepare to fight is counter-productive to their base pyschology (impossible to convince). However, selling the idea that they will need to build their own barter economies to compete with TPTB's raping plans, may strike a chord.

If they are stockpiling ammunition, they should be stockpiling silver in small coins form, to be prepared to spend it into their communities (for more ammunition! or food or to hire more fighters or build factories...) in order to stimulate commerce during the time the govt will be trying to stimulate people to move into cities to accept socialism and dole outs and the govt will be hiring people to fight/regulate the gun activits (and regulate/steal from just about every business activity). The gun activists can't win nor defend their rights defensively with ammunition alone. They will need to have an economic defense as well.

Tangentially, TPTB are very happy that Americans prefer to buy 99.9% instead of 90%, because the former is useless are a durable barter coin. The 99.9% is useful for melting for industry, but it will wear too fast if used in giving change in a genuine barter economy. It people are going to resort to trading worn blobs of silver, then imagine that giving change will involve scales, acid tests, etc...not something the masses are going to want to emulate, and easy for TPTB to outcompete with an Amero alternative (backed by SDRs that include a basket of gold, as China has proposed).

The final point is the real kicker. I believe they will never have to fight if they buy more silver than ammunition. The reason is the because TPTB only want the chaos of fight, if it will mean the gun activists will help destroy the economy with fighting and chaos. But if they gun activists have the economic silver to launch a better economy while they fight, TPTB will quickly change directions and decide to compete and avoid losing control to a more competive economy.

NO ONE IS COMPETING WITH THT TPTB ON SUFFICIENT SCALE. And this is precisely why they can still see benefits of further chaos.

There was talk at the Bilderberg meeting about how far to take this chaos (http://www.infowars.com/the-bilderberg-plan-for-2009-remaking-the-global-political-economy/), so TPTB are well aware of the potential for competition, but so far that competition is nil within the USA. The people are buying guns instead, which is perfect for the TPTB.

I am NOT saying the gun activists will be receptive to the idea of silver as money. I am saying that they are walking into a trap otherwise, and they have the most propensity to understand the utility to their cause. If they can't be convinced, then 1% of the population can never be. This explains why I am not convinced about "silver is money". There is no group in USA that wants (nor will want, TPTB will make sure they offer alternatives) to move back to silver coin money system.

You may not digest my theory here with the same perspective I have (not because you lack ability to understand, but because I may not have explained it in a way that rings a bell in your current thinking), as I don't have time to write up all the nuances of my thinking on this. So I leave it at that.

> Additionally, to market to this target group of gun owners...
>
> While these folks are more aware than the average public as far as TPTB
> goes, and also aware of the fact that their rights are slowly being
> stripped away, they still all have Reactive Minds and are subject to its
> influence upon them. They all have irrationalities, fears, emotional ^
> physical pains of unknown causes, etc. And they too are influencable
> and can be made to purchase on impulse. Thus, offer silver bullets as
> an investment.


Good summary of pyschology, indeed Americans are in a reactive state, which is why TPTB is in control. Americans need to move to a proactive, calm rational forward thinking state, but that is extremely unlikely as their lives have been filled by noise of continuous busy work, media, toxins/medications, etc.. and emotional zombie/compulsive states which enable people to avoid experiencing reality (an insurance mechanism that they think will insure they don't experience past random pain). It is all based on the belief that man can be in control of his destiny, which is false. Disorder is always increasing in the universe, one must embrace it, in order to be free.


> Find a way of manufacturing silver bullets at low cost
> and make it known that the cost of this manufacturing is not profited
> upon (break even only) and sell the ideas back of silver investments.


I thought of that also, but "silver as money" doesn't work as a gimick (which is why I think TPTB will always be in control until the end times where the masses have totally enslaved themselves in their desire for insured reality).

Shelby wrote:...SUBJECT: Potentially largest untapped market for bullion buyers in USA

Jason, here is one parting gift of an idea, because I want to share "God bless you" with an action. This has been on my mind for past weeks.

Americans bought 1.5 BILLION rounds of ammunition in December 2008, in just 3 months Americans bought enough guns to outfit the entire Chinese and Indian armies combined...

...I am NOT saying the gun activists will be receptive to the idea of silver as money. I am saying that they are walking into a trap otherwise, and they have the most propensity to understand the utility to their cause. If they can't be convinced, then 1% of the population can never be. This explains why I am not convinced about "silver is money"...

Shelby wrote:> Additionally, to market to this target group of gun owners...
>
> While these folks are more aware than the average public as far as TPTB
> goes, and also aware of the fact that their rights are slowly being
> stripped away, they still all have Reactive Minds and are subject to its
> influence upon them. They all have irrationalities, fears, emotional ^
> physical pains of unknown causes, etc. And they too are influencable
> and can be made to purchase on impulse. Thus, offer silver bullets as
> an investment.


Good summary of pyschology, indeed Americans are in a reactive state, which is why TPTB is in control. Americans need to move to a proactive, calm rational forward thinking state, but that is extremely unlikely as their lives have been filled by noise of continuous busy work, media, toxins/medications, etc.. and emotional zombie/compulsive states which enable people to avoid experiencing reality (an insurance mechanism that they think will insure they don't experience past random pain). It is all based on the belief that man can be in control of his destiny, which is false. Disorder is always increasing in the universe, one must embrace it, in order to be free..\.

http://silverstockreport.com/2009/gunshow.html

Hommel wrote:We sold 23 oz. of silver at a gun show this weekend! Woo Hoo! I had three people transport and sell silver on our behalf at the Vallejo, CA gun show this weekend. There was only one other numismatic dealer, and we had the lowest prices on bullion, and we were the only ones who had bullion in bulk. We took and offered 6500 ounces of silver and 70 ounces of gold. While the booth was cheap, there was also the cost of hotels, and wages, so we spent nearly $1000 to offer silver at the show.

Silver was just not even on the radar screen of people at the show. They had no thought or comprehension of silver or gold.

When asked if they wanted silver, people retorted, "What do I need silver for, I have a gun, and ammo! I can get whatever I need." Scary, but true!

It appears that these thoughtless gun owners are all planning on turning to a life of crime to provide for their needs if the economy gets much worse. That is very, very bad news for us all...

God bless Jason for trying. I am not suggesting he try harder, because you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

He now agrees with most of my theory about cabal. I wrote the following to him, to try to convince him that developing world won't return to a fiat-less economy, and to convince him that the current dollar fiat is not the final "one world govt currency":


There is already a VAT in most of developing world. You think those govts want to allow a physical gold standard where business can avoid reporting transactions?

The strong dollar system you summarized, thus created a group of developing world local leaders subservient to the cabal (intl bankers). They are not about to give up their power. They will create a new fiat (perhaps backed by gold), and the wealthy individual will be able to convert his fiat to/from gold (after paying taxes, filling up forms), but this won't be any different than what we have now in that gold & silver won't trade as money, except perhaps a black market will develop during the crisis times (to fade away as Asia prosperity develops).

It is a repeat of the cycle where the pound sterling was replaced by the dollar as the world's reserve standard in early 1900s.

The cabal has already conquered America, now the goal is to finish off bringing the developing world into credit cards and finish them off. Then we will be at end times, where you either conform or are killed.

Btw, the mainstream media doesn't report that 1.1 million have been killed in Iraq (genocide), that is not including the 0.5 million from the first Gulf War.

The world has always been ruled by Kings and always will be until the end times, it is just more incideous (less overt) now. This is actually mentioned by verse in Bible, where we are told not to have a King, but if we demand one, then he will take all our possessions and freedom over time.

The root cause is the public desire to pool resources and redistribute wealth (statism). The root cause is the public's desire to have sure things here on earth, rather than a random result.

This is all about Entropy, and how it can increase locally, but overall it is decreasing in the universe. Thus we know what is at the infinite edge of the universe, it has no form (100% disorder). I am sure you have noted that the more order you attempt to build in your life, the more work it takes to maintain it (unsustainable).

> Honestly the very thought of 30 years of limbo is something I can't
> accept.
> What is there to live for?


There are infinite realities for us to explore in the meantime and even after. Drugs are one way people change their sensory perception. I think there are other ways, such as meditation, changing environment, running hard releases endorphins, etc..

I think this is why the Bible speaks about coming out early of the Great Harlot. Because imagine a world that was constantly becoming more ordered (not just locally)-- increasing limitations until there is truely nothing more to live for.

That the world is so dynamic (random) is exciting...


>
> I have not really tried to order my life. Mostly my goal has been to
> reduce
> stress in my life. In that I've been very successful, and the effort
> required
> has gone down.


Ditto.


>
> Eric de Carbonnell has frequent reports of big failures in wheat and
> soybean production throughout the world. He thinks we're going to see
> famine and food shortages, and hyperinflation starting in china and then
> spreading to the US.


But if this happens, the masses in developing world will go back to the farms and eat root crops. The establishment will lose a lot they have worked so hard for.

Rather I think this is a business move. I read that Rothschild has been investing heavily in food production for export in India. They need to destroy the farming in western world. Andrew Carnegie built a dam that burst to destroy his only big competitor in USA, so he was able to monopolize the steel industry.


>
> I think the US seems caught up in a populist / socialist mentality. People
> seem vehemently to despise anyone who disagrees with statements like,
> "we need to take care of each other." Anyone who says things like that
> makes me think they're really saying, "you are evil if you don't take care
> of me." It makes me sick. When did selfishness get to be immoral?


Education and mass media.



>
> I just don't see how it can all hold together. I don't see evidence of
> planning. I see rats leaving a sinking ship with whatever treasure they
> can grab. The misallocation of resources is staggering. Real pain is
> going on right now, and it's getting worse at an accelerating rate. In
> the USA I mean. Crisis after crisis. It's like this system is in its death
> throes.


The mainstrean ends up like Europe, a socialist dependent economy on the rest of world. We few rats (10%?) jump ship.

>
> Mainstream media is controlled, you can't be surprised they don't report
> 1M+ deaths in Iraq. I don't even watch mainstream media. The atrocities
> in the Gaza strip were sickening. Some people had the nerve to justify
> indescriminate bombing there by Israel. "They should have stopped the
> missiles from coming into Israel!" Ridiculous. USA is guilty by
> association,
> by not censuring Israel.
>
> When did the Georgia/Ossettia situation develop? Oil touched around $150
> a barrel, then Georgia swept into Ossettia. Russia drove them out quickly.
> Humiliations galore for the USA, which goaded Georgia into action, and
> promised support. Their promise was pretty worthless, eh? I believe the
> oil collapse down to $40 was US economic warfare, to punish Russia, since
> Russia needs expensive oil for now. I believe the US military was
> stretched
> too thin, so they responded by taking down oil. This hits Venezuela and
> the
> middle east as well, sort of freebies.
>
> I think the US shot its last wad though. I hope the rumours of COMEX
> defaults in June will be true. I hope oil continues to rise. Things seem
> to
> be
> heading in the right direction for US dollar collapse.


I think they will let it run to extremes again, then slam it again. A repeat of 2008.

Remember nature operates in exponential S curves...


>
> No, I just can't see how it can all hold together for 30 more years. We're
> in
> a big mess, I don't believe the mess can be corrected by introducing
> another
> fiat currency.


Developing world is not in a big mess. They have a high savings rate and youthful population ready to work hard. Cabal is harnessing that energy, along with creative destruction of the West (dollar).


>
> In terms of your entropy, I think your theory applies better to the Cabal
> trying
> to maintain central control. I don't think they can. I don't think they
> can
> respond fast enough to every crisis that comes along.


They want crisis, as they win more socialism power every time there is one, due to public's desire to be "insured".


==========
ADD:

> In terms of your entropy, I think your theory applies better to the Cabal
> trying
> to maintain central control. I don't think they can. I don't think they
> can
> respond fast enough to every crisis that comes along.


The public's always increasing desire for "insurance" (to be protected) gives the cabal it's ever increasing power. You can see the public is even willing to condone torture, to maintain their "protection" from the horrible muslim "terrorists".

The USA will go the way of Europe. The developing world is heading towards copying USA's 20th century, but on an accelerated pace (they is why I say "30 years?" to peak of the one world govt/fiat direction).

Sure along the way there is great failure and chaos, but the public's reaction to these crisis, is to ask for more govt intervention, taxes, etc..

The local leaders in developing nations have a power base, because they worked for this direction. They won't give up this power, and the people of developing world want to have the "great life" we had in USA. They want to be protected, after decades of wallowing in poverty.

Eventually we do get a peak (30 years?) and that centralized paradigm collapses (localized Entropy peak), but we can't get that peak while 6 billion people are not yet in that "protection" (socialism) racket. The 6 billion can carry the 1 billion westerners on their back, and the cabal will manage this process. There will be great failure (increasing socialism) in West, while there will be great increases in production in developing world to finance that failure. In return, the developing world will be given the road to the same result, which is what the people in developing world want (and if they didn't want it, they are being indoctrinated now with TV in every home in every village).

See prior post also (posted same day).

I think the US govt will grow much larger first, especially as riots break out in USA. Obama is talking about a mandatory civilian army. Essentially most job growth is now coming from the govt. I think the dollar will last much longer than everyone expects, as the only viable alternative is gold, which the world can not move to without imploding trade. I think the dollar will be transformed to internal and external dollar, with new names. The external one will be "backed by gold" (sort of). The Asian creditors will get paid out (over a very long time), only by staying with this new order. The external/internal wall will provide preferential treatment to those creditors, but they must play ball and not try to move to gold coin money system (no one wants this any way).


===============
ADD:

I think they regulate most medicines now in Philippines other than antibiotics. Ten years ago, one could buy steriods over the counter. The Philippines is very anarchaic in the hinterlands, but the cities have become so incredibly structured in past few years. People now obey the street signs somewhat. I think it has been the spread of TV in past few years. The balance right now is about perfect for me, but I would take the old way, if it meant we slow down the Westernization of Asia by 10 years. It is inevitable...

China spreading liability around for it's US debt, is bullish for the dollar, because the more interwinded the dependence on the dollar, then the less desire for the world to move away from it.

Also you have to look at relative scale of the the tiny moves below and the $1000 trillion in dollar derivatives. The whole world is locked into these derivatives and no one wants to walk away and be toasted.

One state tiny population state defied the Feds on guns. But again you need to look at relative scale. California and other states with huge populations are taking on Fed aid/loans and will thus beholden to the Feds. This is how the Feds will push through the REAL ID and other things they want to force the states to do.

The market in Treasuries is not collapsing. You are talking about a short-term phenomenon, just like when oil crashed. The cabal is playing games with the volatility.

Do not believe the propoganda.

No I stopped all technical work, as I have had a major decline in my eye health (blurry much of the time). I am contemplating retiring on what I have now. I am also contemplating fun retail businesses in Philippines, something like a pizza place with activities for the youth (the youth are really lacking outlets to play here).


> I'm wondering if you're seeing the same articles I've been seeing. Some
> general themes are showing up:
>
> 1) Middle east (except Saudi Arabia) is moving to trading oil in
> non-dollars, and is also making noises about a gold backed currency
> 2) Various exporting countries are starting to settle accounts in their
> own
> currencies. Especially China, making deals with Argentina, Russia and
> probably more where dollars are not involved in trade settlement.
> 3) China is taking steps to make its currency an international one.
> Foreign
> nations are able to hold yuan.
> 4) China is buying up natural resources around the world, locking down
> supplies. China is financing the purchases, pledging their hoard of US
> Treasuries as collateral. So their trade surplus in dollars can get turned
> around to pay interest on their own debt based purchases. If US treasuries
> collapse, they default and let the seller take the treasuries.
> 5) US government is loosening its control. There is talk of
> decriminalizing
> marijuana. In my life control and government intrusion has always
> ratcheded
> one way -- to less freedom, more control. This is the first backwards step
> and it's very refresshing.
> 6) States are openly defying the federal government in issues of gun
> control. States are passing resolutions to threaten the US government if
> they keep exceeding their constitutional limits. Open talk of seceeding
> from
> the union on many states.
> 7) Localities are creating their own currencies. There is one just south
> of
> me in North Carolina. Some states have their own "central" banks, and
> those
> banks are prospering. One of the Dakotas comes to mind.
> US deficit predictions this hear approach 2 trillion dollars. Tax
> revenue
> was only 250 billion or so, whereas last year it was on the order of 400
> billion. Market in long term US treasuries is collapsing, there are no
> buyers. US government will have a hard time just paying the interest,
> through rolling over the debt. None of the bailout efforts have succeeded.
> Nor will they.
>
> I could go on. The picture I'm seeing is the US is being thrown to the
> wolves.