How will we physically trade gold & silver at $5000 & $500?

Also read the previous page of this thread, as there were several new posts.

I have sources who have never run out of 1000oz bars. So when you say Apmex has run out, that does not indicate anything other than that Apmex has to wait to receive supply as they put send their money for payment. Sometimes Apmex is waiting for Eagles, Maples or something else other than Comex bars. There won't be any shortage until Comex defaults. Apmex is probably buying from Penoles in Mexico (or a reseller of Penoles), in order to get 19 cents pricing.

You promote the Hommel premiums as if they are good thing. How is it good that Hommel is pocketing the money that buyers could have used to obtain more silver oz? Just because the buyers are unaware that they can get more silver at lower prices, means Hommel gets richer while less silver spreads out. Hommel is afraid to allow competition at seekbullion, because the premiums would be driven down. I have a seller coming to my site in the New year who will be selling 1oz rounds and undercutting Hommel's pricing significantly. This will be great for the silver buyers and great for our country as importing more silver.

I know you want to see a Comex default and prices go up. The premiums on small bullion actually slow down that process (they are a barrier, not a help). Hommel is a barrier, not a help (for the most part). Go read my latest posts more carefully. What you need to understand is that low spreads leads to more trading and more confidence in buying. Money does not function well with high spreads. If we want to drive the price of silver to the moon, we should also be trying to drive the premiums and spreads to zero. The spread is the difference between the sell and buy price. Do you see Hommel offering to buy the silver back at -2% spread? I will be offering that soon. That is how we make silver money again.

Hope this helps you to understand better what is really going on.


P.S. Remember Hommel's last post about me in his forum, he wrote "GoldWetRust.com", then he said that I was listing the lowest premium products highest on the site. He is obviously threatened by that. A conflict of interest. How can someone be promoting silver for the better of all, yet be against lower spreads and premiums for all? The price can go up, while the spreads and premiums come down, in fact that is the way that will happen.

All boxes (bars) have been located. FedEx security is picking them up now from Lowes Home Improvement store.

Good to see that FedEx security decided to take possession instead of letting Lowes send them back to us.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11103

...Gold has a critical role to play in a new international currency system, but returning to a gold coin standard would create the most ferocious deflation of all time. Got any credit card debt? If you do, a gold coin standard would make it infinitely harder to ever pay it off. You would be slaving for the rest of your life to pay off a $5,000 credit card balance, or less...

That is why the anonymous P2P must be prepared. In order for their to be honest weights & measures, then the masses must be pushed into slavery temporarily.

But this is not entirely true. The debts are owed to the bankers. If the creditors are defaulted upon, then everyone is reset at 0, with no debt. Or if the creditors are paid with FED printing money, then the debts are hyperinflated away by a devalued dollar (price of gold can not be suppressed then). So it doesn't have to be as stated by that quote, but you know the creditors have the control of the govt, the military, and the FED, so they can force the masses into a financial jail and blame it on the gold hoarders. But with a P2P system, then they can't find the gold hoarders, even though we continue to trade and grow the world economy. That means checkmate on the bankers, and it means the population will hunt them down and do what they did to them in the French Revolution.

I would not want to be banker right now. They must be very scared. They should be. They could kill me, but I already published the method. They can not stop it, too many people know how to program P2P now.

I did not ask for these other websites to publish my article. As expected, a powerful idea will spread like a good virus:

http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/12.08/solution.html

Instead he got angry when I wouldn't give him 49% of my work and allow him to control the design, then banned me from his forum, cursed me, and now appears he will pay the price of not respecting the free market enough...

Shelby wrote:...I will start to target his market when my rounds come back from Mint in 1st week of January (hopefully), by undercutting his prices and providing instant sales (no need to wait for auction close timing). If necessary I will take his margins down to 0 (by taking my margins down to a few % on the rounds only portion of my business, since my costs are lower than his) and look at my rounds business as a loss leader for the rest of the business for all your benefit (buyers and sellers)....

Shelby wrote:...Hommel is afraid to allow competition at seekbullion, because the premiums would be driven down...

P.S. Remember Hommel's last post about me in his forum, he wrote "GoldWetRust.com", then he said that I was listing the lowest premium products highest on the site. He is obviously threatened by that. A conflict of interest. How can someone be promoting silver for the better of all, yet be against lower spreads and premiums for all? The price can go up, while the spreads and premiums come down, in fact that is the way that will happen.

http://silverstockreport.com/2008/more.html

Hommel wrote:...I'll be put out of business by the market, and I'll have to either pull listings, or list with a minimum "spot plus" price format. Right now, it's very close...

...I've lost a few pennies per ounce on a few auctions, but that's the way it goes. Hopefully, I'll earn more than I lose, to be able to continue. That's life, that's business, it's a risk I'm willing to take.

We already lost a bit selling some 100 oz. bars as low as $1.35 over spot, hopefully to make into rounds that are in shorter supply, and selling for higher premiums...

I will keep the person anonymous, and I will paraphrase what they wrote so you won't recognize his writing:

He said the Comex bars are selling quickly indicating a change from when people would not buy Comex bars.

I replied:

Agreed. If that was the thurst of your point, then I agree.

He said that he is not promoting high premiums, just sharing the fact of tightness in retail versus wholesale market.

I replied:

Agreed. However the degree of "tightness" is an unknown, because to some degree the largest promoter with the largest mailing list in the silver industry, has apparently prioritized his own personal profit over the priority of maximizing the flow of information (and especially liquidity) in a free market setting. If Jason had opened his promotion and trading to all sellers, then not only would we have a faster and more cost effective transfer of retail to wholesale demand, but we would also have better feedback on the degree and change of "tightness".

In short, Jason would have been much wiser to focus on the information and commissions from trading (a long-term business model), than turning himself into a proprietary manufacturer (short-term model). He removed his authority as an independent, objective reporter. There are other numerous drawbacks to the direction chosen by Hommel. He had numerous options, and imho he chose the most expedient and most short-sighted option. Time will tell...


He said it is good that someone is transfer retail demand to wholesale offtake.

I replied:

Many people can manufacture rounds and buy 1000oz bars. Afaics, it is of no particular benefit that Jason do it exclusively to his large mailing list, and particularly since that exclusivity is not building a long-term benefit, but numerous undesireable side effects. For one thing, it is caused several great inefficiencies, which is always the case when there is lack of competition and centralization of decisions. For one thing, the opportunity to build a large, growing free market (which is what he wrote he wanted to do, and what had originally inspired me) was deprioritized in favor of one person monetizing a mailing list that was funded by the paying subscribers of that mailing list, who have received no benefit and were tossed aside with 80 - 90% losses in the stock recommendations made by Hommel.


He said it is debatable whether lower premiums would break the Comex monopoly.


I replied:

Imho, this is not debateable. It is fact for anyone who understands that Gresham's Law dictates (and afaik has never been violated in history of man) that the most liquid money drives the less liquid money out-of-circulation. Jason debated with me about Gresham's Law, because he said silver & gold came back after Rome's debasement etc. But they came back in lower liquidity called the Dark Ages, where most people buried it. Jason's major flaw is always forgets to include Velocity of Money in his analysis where he compares money supply to value of silver.


He said people are free to not buy in the auctions and go else where.

I replied:

They will be free markets when any one is allowed to sell. Until then, it is similar to how the masses are told by the mass media things, and do not know other facts exist. Jason readers only know what he is telling them. I suspect they do not know lower premiums exist at other sites, and I also have a suspicion that they have a "God-like" opinion of Hommel (I may be wrong, but I see how Jason plays that card). Of course this will change. He can only block the flow of information for so long.


He said the current pricing is correct as the market is setting it. Might change in future.

I replied:

It seems to me that the current pricing is saying the market is not free. We will be able to prove this when I list 9,079oz of 1oz rounds for 50-75% of Hommel's premium in early January, produced by the same mint Jason is using. We may see that my rounds do not sell, except for 2 large european dealers and a guy in Texas, because people do not know about them, and that they continue to overpay. Of course, I will endeavor to get word out. And I won't be asking my readers to pay for my advertising, so that I can use it selfishly. I will instead pay my readers to spread the word (affiliate program), and let them all participate as sellers.

I hope you understand what the word free means. It means Jason is free to destroy himself, which he is doing so well, I dare not try to warn him. Just let him go ahead.


I understood him to say (and I might have interpreted wrong) that GWT is not necessarily better, people are different, and people mostly want to get what is best for themselves.

I replied:

There are many different things that people want. One thing is to get the lowest price. But when talking about a few percent difference in price, a more visceral need wins, and that is liquidity. Liquidity means that I can buy, change my mind 5 seconds later, click a button and sell and know that I can always sell and I won't lose 5% spread.

So in that respect, I had the wrong initial design for GWT. I was trying to increase liquidity by lowering the spread of my fees, but I forgot that a small market is inherently illiquid and this liquidity startup catch-22 is the problem for all physical metal trading. And that is the reason GWT is not making waves. In it's current form, GWT does nothing super significant for liquidity in the market. Jason is providing great liquidity for buyers, but zero for those buyers who want to sell. Money is useless if you can't sell it. It isn't money.

This will change in January, because I now understand what the market wants, which NONE of the dealers are doing except for rpietila in Finland. He is the only person who understood how to compete with the ETFs (paper silver). Now I understand.


He appreciated my recent articles, appreciated that I had used some of his writings in my analysis, but he cautioned me that people can't grasp the technical mumbo-jumbo.

I replied:

I put that out there for technical people to read, in hopes that some would compete with me. I am hoping that some people with capital, would take that to technical people and say "implement this". For example, people at GATA are hopefully reading it by now. For example, maybe even James Turk at GoldMoney.com is reading it, so that he can have some idea what sort of system would win outside of placing his vaults right in the lair of the "powers that be".

Of course, if I implement it, then it won't be technical. It will be "click this button to buy silver anonymously". "Click this button to check someone trust record" (how well they have delivered in past).

But that P2P anonymizer is not the main thrust of what the market needs. The market needs liquidity, and the P2P is just the way to keep the govt from shutting it down, like they did with egold.com and libertydollar.com. So the market only needs the P2P layer to be added on top of a proven high liquidity digital gold & silver system, because of the ignorance of the masses (power of the govt). The first step is to demonstrate in the market a high liquidity gold & silver money system. For example, GoldMoney.com is not able to achieve high liquidity because they must force new signups, incoming and withdrawals to jump through Patriot Act and anti-money laundering paper work hoops. The govt was very clever in placing road blocks to liquidity. But I think there is way around it. Which is essentially what I was writing about.



He said exactly, "we are in a great deal of trouble in the states."

I replied:

Agreed, that is an understatement imho. I never thought I would be more pessimistic than you. I think you are not safe there, not even in the farms. Do you think starving masses do not know how to walk on country roads to raid farms? Do you think any amount of ammunition can stop them? What you and your wife going to do, take turns staying awake whole night with spotlights on your entire ground?

Orlov even writes that martial law will be preferrable to the mayhem otherwise. So I think "show me your papers" is a very real possibility. Why would you invest to be stuck in that, when you could be mobile and more flexible on the go fleeing to any of 200 countries, as this thing morphs?


He said he is even having a bit of confusion over where gold & silver is headed sometimes.

I replied:

I think this is why it is critical that we have an anonymous tradeable digital gold & silver. They have to be mobile with us. We will all need some way to sell what we can produce on the go, and store our profits but not have to carry them on our backpack.

Safety will be a crucial issue. As Fekete wrote, the govt will declare metals as extra-legal meaning the govt won't protect you from theft. They will leave you to fight for yourself. If you want the protection of the govt, you will come inside their "show me your papers" system.


He said in worst case scenario maybe food and fuel will be more important to have.

I replied:

Problem is that both of those are perishable and do not travel well. Thus are sitting ducks for the mayhem coming. So you can bet anonymous digital gold & silver will be extremely important.


He can't be sure how this disintegration will proceed to the end.

I replied:

I expect silver to briefly be safe, because the masses are holding 17 Boz in silverware. But at some point that all gets sold, then silver will become as dangerous to hold physically as gold. The problem will be perhaps that while silver is do tradeable and valuable, what can we trade it for? Food? Land? Houses? None of those things will be helpful during the crisis. They are all burdens, and depreciating assets. What we need is a way to store our wealth and carry it where ever it can do most go as that will change always and rapidly. Opportunities will pop up (say delivering food to starving community) and the fleet footed will profit. How to store their profits?

If people can't store profits, then economy stops entirely. That is what the cabal wants I think.

You too have a great holiday. Let's keep in touch and let's keep the idea mill flowing.

Here is my current understanding. Please feel free to correct me and/or add your thoughts.

Gresham's Law states that bad money drives good money out-of-circulation. I re-factor this, "more liquid money drives less liquid money out-of-circulation", and I note that liquidity is a function of popularity and physical limitations. An example of a limitation is that electronic money can be manufactured faster and at less cost than paper money, and paper money faster and less cost than precious metals. Popularity is entirely based on minimizing the cost of manufacture and trading of money, because people have inherent economics optimizer to prefer less frictional losses in money trading (e.g. distance is a form of friction with non-electronic money), and popularity is tied to the precise mathematical definition of "usury", which I have recently formulated, "perpetual sin of humans to borrow money faster than (and thus at higher interest rates than) the growth percentage rate of production of goods and services". Borrowing itself is somehow similar to investment (not a sin?), if done in moderation (less than the growth rate of production). See the "fish story" posts in the Inflation Deflation thread for more on that.

When we understand that, we can see that never has Gresham's Law been reversed. The history of man is one of a continual movement towards more liquid forms of money. In Dark Ages, when men tried to move back to physical silver & gold as money, much of it got buried in ground (idle hiding) and commerce ground to a halt (idle capital), the Roman road system went into decay, etc.. So net effect, the borrowing still exceeded production, because the hard money forced a lower production and lower borrowing (because society refuses to invest first and borrow less than growth of production). This was because the masses must always been given an illusionary money, that enables their usurious liquidity desires, otherwise a hard money discipline forces theft, chaos, and money goes into hiding and production stops.

So the ONLY WAY that any one can expect gold & silver to be useful as we go forward in this crisis, is for someone to provide a technology to break Gresham's Law. In my estimation, anonymous peer-to-peer trading of physically backed digital gold & silver, might do it, because then the usurious society can not force it into *IDLE* hiding. It will be hiding without being *IDLE* capital. Of course this would never be more liquid than the digital FIAT money that the state will create at some point to replace the dollar and reset the debts anew. But the anonymous digital gold I think can serve as a more effective competive release valve "checks and balances" forcing the state and society to more quickly reset debts anew (remember Bible says debts should be forgiven every 7 years), because capital would always have a non-IDLE hiding place where it can continue to be productive, when the state's more liquid money gets to it's periodic reset juncture.

Dr. Fekete has concurred that it is the coming persecution of gold & silver that will send them into hiding and send the world economy into the Dark Ages (the crisis that Kissinger proposes to bring us to beg for new World Order currency):

http://goldwetrust.up-with.com/economics-f4/inflation-or-deflation-t9-45.htm#659 <--- much commentary
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_08/fekete122008.html

Dr. Fekete wrote:...The disappearance of money, that can be trusted, fatally undermines the legal system, the sanctity of contracts, habeas corpus, any and all provisions of law and order that we take for granted. Under these conditions nobody can operate a gold mine, nobody can run a gold refinery, nobody can guarantee segregated gold deposits, and nobody can prevent the institutionalized theft of ETF holdings...

...we shall have a world gone Madoff...

Events are accelerating as compared to the time of Rome, thus I expect the Dark Ages to be fairly brief before the world accedes to the new world order regime of money and "protection of law" (the money masters will provide the framework by which men can trust each other in transactions, and remember this is all caused by the excessive usury, "the borrower is slave to the lenders").

I registered a new domain today:

999cash.com

I think is better than GoldWeTrust?

The redesign of GoldWeTrust.com (GWT) I am contemplating/proposing is going to involve several new features, and some simplifying changes to existing features. I would like to get feedback on the following?

1. Until the Comex/fiat gold window price dies, which is apparently not before Feb 2009 (probably a bit longer than that), then we will be able to trade fiat for gold & silver. When it dies, the price (of gold & silver) in fiat will be rising every second (hyperinflation, even though production will be imploding, thus deflation of wages). The redesign has to work in both cases.
   
   
2. While spot is not dead, Silver (& gold) "grams" could be offered at roughly spot+7% (+4% for gold), plus $30, backed by large bars stored at FSD vault, redeemable for spot or redeemable in physical large bars (no charge) or in small bullion at market premiums or transferable/payment to another account or vendor. As my volume increases and price of silver increases, these premiums can come down and be less than most people would pay for Comex bars on their own.
   
   In comparison, for < $1000 credit card order, the only other company that I know of that accepts credit card orders is Apmex is charging minimum of spot+33%+$20 for silver 10oz (even more for 1oz, spot+11.5%+$20 for gold coins), or 4 weeks turn around on mailed checks for 3% less. The spread on small physical silver bullion when selling to dealer is more than 20% when including S&H&I (and more than 5% on gold). Clearly I would have much more competitive arbitrage advantage by targeting silver buyers than gold. I think eBay+Paypal credit card orders have similar or greater premiums and spreads.
   
   GoldMoney.com is offering spot+4% on silver (+2.5% gold) redeemable for spot, and SLV stock ETF is spot and 0% spread, but neither allow credit cards nor physical redemption, and both require paperwork and delays for account setup.
   
   
3. Note that for credit card orders only, redemption would be restricted for 3 months, due to credit card chargeback risk. This will be in very fine print (in large print will be that refunds cost $50 + any market loss), and there will be an option during the 3 month restriction to wire the original amount of the credit card order + $50, a refund will be applied to the card (so chargeback is impossible) and the redemption restriction will be removed. This restriction also insures we stay within the Patriot Act, because the true cardholder will have ample time to claim to their issuer of any charge that is not theirs. Thus the identity of the card holder is as stated on the card. We can run an extra verification on credit cards, having the cardholder call their bank to ask the amount of 2 random charges (order split into 2 charges) or a single random pre-authorization amount.
   
   I suppose I could spin this in a positive way and put in large print, "Credit cards orders redeemed in first 3 months, must be refunds of original purchase amount to the card and incur a 10% restocking fee plus any market loss if metal price has declined. After 3 months, normal redemption advantages apply to credit card orders."
   
   
4. Credit card orders would be accepted up to $1000 for "grams" (not bullion), or credit cards would be accepted to provide a guarantee to lockin price for "grams" or bullion for sale, with the wire to arrive within 1 business day (card is charged the forfeitable deposit if wire not received). Mailed payments will no longer be accepted, as these take too long to clear, have chargeback risk, and thus offer no advantage over credit cards. Wire fee will be increased to $30 to discourage small wire orders (push them to credit cards which are more automated) and cover manual overhead of processing infrequent wires (wholesale business is large orders and not enough orders to reduce manual overhead). BTW, I won't be accepting Paypal because:
   
   http://goldwetrust.up-with.com/goldwetrustcom-f1/is-important-a-low-margin-trading-site-open-instantly-to-all-sellersbuyers-and-not-short-silver-t25-15.htm#654
   
   
5. When redeeming "grams" for bullion on sale on the site, the seller of the bullion will receive the current selling price x 1.01 of "grams", but will receive it in "grams". Sellers will be able to click a checkbox if they ony want to receive $$ and don't want their bullion to sell for "grams". For example, say the seller has 1000 x 1oz rounds listed for spot+20%, and say "grams" are currently being sold for spot+7%, and say spot is $10, then seller will receive 1110.4oz of "grams" (1000 x $12 / ($10.70 x 1.01)). So the point is that sellers who want to obtain Comex bars, can just accept "grams", then they don't have the hassle/cost/risk of converting cash to Comex bars, and they get to sell to our captive (and hopefully growing) market of "grams" owners.
   
   
6. I want to greatly simply the buying and selling of bullion products. The current system allows for too many options and greatly complicates the process. Seller will provide his own photo and short description. The more we can simplify and re-assure buyers, then the more sales we can get. I want to reduce the bullion product categories to:
   
   Silver (0.999 only):
   Comex bar
   100oz <-- Comex approved manufacturers only, or ISO certified with ASTM assay certificate
   10oz as new
   1oz as new
   not as new
   
   Gold:
   Kilo bar 24K <-- Comex approved manufacturers only
   1oz Krugs 22K as new
   1oz Eagles 22K as new
   not as new
   
   * as new means no gashes or dents, except those which were part of manufacturing process. And no tarnished finish. If necessary, clean your silver using correct inexpensive chemical solution before selling it (do not polish your silver as some trace amount of silver is lost when mechnically cleaning). I want buyers to be 100% satisfied at all times.
   
   Btw, Maples (24K) are too soft for gold coinage, govt silver rounds are overpriced for no benefit as spot dies & mayhem comes, and 100oz bars are never "as new" so I want to cut out the riff-raff and low volume manufacturers (too confusing for buyers).
   
   
7. As spot dies, "grams" will have to priced by the market of sellers (both on my site and any other reliable sources I can find). I might even have to back them with non-Comex bars. This combined with my volume at the time, will determine how I set and price the minimum order size. I also suspect credit cards will start to die or become too at risk of chargebacks. I also think that it will become at some point more important to trade real things for grams or bullion, rather than fiat, so the ability to spend "grams" at vendors and auction sites will become important. Also it might become entirely too risky to accept wires, due to coming regulatory changes. It is really difficult to plan the interim stages between the spot is alive system to the ultimate P2P anonymous cash system that I've been discussing in this thread.
   
   It most likely that everyone will simply stop trading and pull out all their metal into hiding once the spot death situation gets far enough along. So I am not sure I am even going to plan for any interim system, I may go from the above system directly to the P2P anonymous system, encouraging people to take delivery (in person at the depository!) and move their bullion into the anonymous P2P system. And in both systems, I will be encouraging all of you to become vendors and accept "grams" as payments. The more vendors we have, the better motivation people will have to transfer into the P2P system when spot dies, in order to keep the trading system of the world operating (at least for those us using this system).
   
   Think about the type of services you can offer to people and accept to be paid in "grams". Think of the things that people will really need most as spot dies, as this will be a small focused market. I would suggest maybe someone needs to make an auction site and accept "grams". I think who ever does that could become the next eBay of the post spot world, as desperate people will be dumping all their real things to get "grams". And physically trading the metal for real things ain't gonna scale, as we discussed earlier in this thread. Also think of other crucial services that you can offer, that don't apply to you locale, but to the wider audience of the internet. There is an opportunity for everyone. Get busy before it is too late. Help me (build an ark), if you want to do something other than hide and wait for the 666 system to come to you.
   
   
8. My alternative even more simple design would that all "grams" would be backed by 1oz rounds (not Comex bars), and the pricing would be the market price (of rounds for sale on the site), redeemable with same restrictions, and then stop selling bullion products other than rounds. The redeem price would be set by the market price on the site. I would still get my commission fee. The advantage is that I wouldn't have to hedge the small purchases while they accumulate to a Comex bar. It would provide more immediate demand for rounds. It would allow buyers to redeem directly in rounds, but essentially this is just front loading the paying of the premium on rounds, as compared the system proposed above. And then the sellers of rounds would have the problem of hedging the small cash sales until they accumulate enough to purchase a Comex bar. And it would reduce the competitive advantage over Apmex and eBay for credit card buyers < $1000. If someone really wants rounds, they will just go directly to buy them on Apmex, since they wouldn't have the 3 month hold period or wire hassle. So it seems the only opening in the market for me to do something unique is to sell "grams" at lowest cost to credit card buyers, and to sell wholesale volumes of bullion at lower cost than tulving.com and seekbullion.com. So that is why I arrived at the design I stated above and rejected this alternative simpler design. rpietila is able to find a captive market in Finland selling 90% at great premiums, also because Finland and Sweden have very reliable money payment systems bank-to-bank with easy click.
   
   
9. Please give me feedback (in forum or in email).
   
   If you feedback to me in email, tell me if anonymous quotes of your email are ok or not. I prefer you post in forum for everyone's benefit if ok for you also.
   
   Is this system worth doing? Or should we just admit defeat to the coming slave new world order? Our physical silver and gold won't help us if we can't trade it, the world economy will implode around us. What is a local farmer going to do with silver or gold if he can't spend it for fertilizer, fuel etc?
   
   
10. Also, what is your opinion if I limit credit card orders to $199, and then reduce the $30 fee to $15? At least initially, I am concerned that sending the average ticket size too high on my existing merchant account, might cause me to get hit with a new reserve ruling, tying up perhaps $5000 of the incoming buyer's money. I am thinking the credit card should be limited to the small buyers, the other buyers can use credit card to lockin forfeitable deposit guarantee, then wire the funds.
    
    
11. Another option is to simply focus a redesign on selling wholesale bullion. Which means refining the site in terms of simplying the bullion categories, improving the "look & feel", implementing the affiliate program, and implementing the credit card lockin of next day wires. Maybe this is the 80/20 choice, maybe small orders sales via credit card is not well focused and will not have enough time to get on it's feet before the spot dies. Then using this wholesale market reach to transistion into the anonymous P2P "grams" payment and trading system at the necessary time in future. It seems maybe people won't be motivated with alternative payment systems until the current fiat system stops functioning-- can't put the cart before the horse.
    
    In this respect, an auction site that had a reserve price and a "buy it now" price, might be more useful thant GWT's current design, because then buyers and sellers could get an indication on bids. Actually this could also simply be facilitated if I finished the Buyer's orders feature that already exists on GWT was not yet fully enabled. Then we need only a list of Bids and Asks for the site. In short, maybe wholesale is the only market worth focusing on until spot dies, and maybe I just need to refocus my efforts to finish and refine GWT for that target market? Then use that reach in the market, to go after the big P2P solution to the mayhem coming. I think maybe with the "grams" idea, I was reaching too far ahead of the current market?
    

Only the wholesale market is really worth targeting at this time, and only by providing a lower price. I will continue to do this, the question is where do I invest my scarce time?

Let us say that by manufacturing and selling 1oz rounds, I was able in the next 6 - 9 months to increase my silver by 20 - 33%. What difference will this make to anything? Silver is going so high in value, that an extra 20% is not going to be a significant factor in my life. I won't reach a high enough volume to change the outcome that is coming for the world. Thus 80/20 rule (paretto principle) says that I shouldn't spend too much time in this direction. I will make rounds available on the current site at wholesale quantities (900oz per lot), probably make a few tweaks so people can lockin price. I will offer the service to help people get 1oz rounds at lower prices than every where else. But I just don't see the point of investing too much effort beyond that?? Why go to extreme effort to build out a promotional business model, given that once the Comex defaults, then the whole legal structure for buying Comex bars, manufacturing rounds, selling rounds for fiat at premiums, repeat, ... that whole paradigm is likely to die. Possibly someone will be able to navigate the coming chaos, perhaps buying silverware or otherwise recycling silver back to monetary forms, somehow selling it for hyperinflating chaotic fiat, somehow able to pay suppliers and keeping the business running. Sounds like a giant morass to me. Sounds like one becomes a slave to the bankers pulling strings on a puppet.

I guess there is the possibility that spot price rockets up and this keeps the Comex alive longer. And this may also to reduce the premiums between 1oz rounds and Comex bars, on a percentage basis, thus making the above business paradigm again less enticing.

What I really need it a paradigm busting idea for something I can work on which could really change the outcome for the world, or at least for the silver and gold investors.

I had the following epipheny today.

We are either inside the fiat system and thus slaves to the bankers, or we are entirely outside of it. There is no balance or in between state of being. If you deal with fiat in any way in your business, then you are a slave and you have the cancer attached to you.

I then realized that the Patriot Act really only applies to "money" laundering. Money is fiat. The Patriot Act doesn't care about people loading accounts with metal and trading metal, not until it became popular. The IRS cares about barter, and all barter transactions have to reported on IRS Form 1099b once the exchange exceeds 100 transactions in a year. So that gives some time to gain initial popularity before reporting requirements start. The IRS must prove that more than 100 transactions occurred. How can they prove that if they can't access the database? :wink: I know what to do. And by the time the popularity is really getting the attention of the govt, that will mean (i.e. egold.com, libertydollar.com) that is time to launch the P2P anonymous version and pull the physical metal into hiding. The key appears to be scaling the timing wisely.

It just seems to me that my effort may be much more wisely invested in building a digital silver service at:

999cash.com

Initially I don't need P2P. I can build popularity first, then build the P2P so I will be ready when the govt feels threatened.

It seems to me, this service should never handle fiat, nor interface with the fiat banking system. Other people can provide services for accepting digital silver and converting to/from fiat.

I think if I build it, people will come. I think it is the future. The whole physical bullion selling market is the past.

Plant a seed for something people will need in future when the plant is harvested. Wayne Gretsky skated to where the hockey puck was going to be, not where it was.

The fiat system is dying. People will need to get out of it. That is the future. Physical metals will work for a while and to some degree locally. But they won't have legal tender protection and society will disintegrate. A digital silver and gold needs to be waiting for the world. And it won't be long time coming.

If there is 100,000oz registered in the digital silver system, then you think when people get desperate they won't try to sell products to us and get our digital gold? Come on now! If there is a sizeable resource, people will access it. That is an economic fact.

I am thinking that 999cash.com should offer exchange rates to/from digital "grams" to various bullion products. If you load/withdraw Comex bars, then the exchange rate is say 99.5% (0.5% fee). The storage fee is 0.5% per year. If you withdraw 1oz rounds, then the exchange rate would currently be 85%, maybe as high as 93% in volume, and would get higher as spot price rises. A key epipheny I had today was I don't see any point in allowing the loading of anything other than Comex bars, until the exchange rate of those smaller bullion is equivalent to Comex bars. You can use an external service to convert your fiat or smaller bullion to "grams" or the Comex bar then to "grams". The point is to let others build business. Any good money system will spawn numerous new business opportunities for you readers.

My advice to all of you, is get silver 90% coin and 1oz 0.999 rounds for your local spending needs. This will work for some time. And then you will also need the digital silver system at some point in future. We need both. I should laserbeam focus my time accordingly.

So I think that settles it. I need to be working for where the hockey puck will be in 6 - 12 months. In meantime, I will bring you 1oz rounds in wholesale volume at lower prices than your other sources. The original GWT design was sort of a bad marriage of ideas promulgated by Hommel and my own attempts to make it more free market. Back in 2007, I had registered payinsilver.com (which I donated to Hommel), and I had always known that when fiat died we needed to be prepared with a digital silver system. I got talked out of it by Hommel (the relevant threads were in 2007 and early 2008). Now I realize that was the only thing really worth working on in the silver & gold realm. The other things (e.g. creating a free market for physical trading) are really not going to change the outcome and are not breaking us free from the bankers. As I told Hommel in 2006, 2007, and again in 2008, physical trading can not work as money. And thus any physical metal trading system is going to fall to it's knees to what ever money the cabal provides for trading.

God bless. Maybe say a prayer for my efforts.


http://financialsense.com/stormwatch/geo/pastanalysis/2008/1219.html

...It is important to understand that private property is fundamental to civilization. Without private property and the legal concept of ownership there cannot be a market, there cannot be material progress, and there cannot be civilization...

Shelby wrote:

[*]Another option is to simply focus a redesign on selling wholesale bullion. Which means refining the site in terms of simplying the bullion categories, improving the "look & feel", implementing the affiliate program, and implementing the credit card lockin of next day wires. Maybe this is the 80/20 choice, maybe small orders sales via credit card is not well focused and will not have enough time to get on it's feet before the spot dies. Then using this wholesale market reach to transistion into the anonymous P2P "grams" payment and trading system at the necessary time in future. It seems maybe people won't be motivated with alternative payment systems until the current fiat system stops functioning-- can't put the cart before the horse.

In this respect, an auction site that had a reserve price and a "buy it now" price, might be more useful thant GWT's current design, because then buyers and sellers could get an indication on bids. Actually this could also simply be facilitated if I finished the Buyer's orders feature that already exists on GWT was not yet fully enabled. Then we need only a list of Bids and Asks for the site. In short, maybe wholesale is the only market worth focusing on until spot dies, and maybe I just need to refocus my efforts to finish and refine GWT for that target market? Then use that reach in the market, to go after the big P2P solution to the mayhem coming. I think maybe with the "grams" idea, I was reaching too far ahead of the current market?
[/list]

I agree with #11. That seems to be the most intuitive option right now. (Give the market what it wants) And like you said, run a parallel digital gram trading system that would integrate with the GWT and it would grow organically. So the wholesale would work for the bulk of the actual physical trading and the grams would fill the void of the smaller customer with low spreads. They could "save" in grams! That should be the drum beat of every person who is serious about changing the monetary order. Getting people to think about their saving in weights(grams ect...) vs. dollars.

Jeremy, after more thought, I think it is too late to get the average people to save in bullion BEFORE the closing of the Comex. Thus, I think it is most efficient to improve the wholesale selling as I enumerated (serve the people who are buying), but to treat the "grams" as something that people will beg for and thus we can spend on them, and the masses will agree to take our "grams" and thus they become money. So the wholesaling is for now, but won't really help. And the "grams" is for when the Comex dies (and credit cards, bank wires, etc die) and needs to be prepared now, so it is ready. I think the Comex death (and death of credit cards, banking wires, etc) will come within months or at most 2 years. I think we will all be surprised how quickly this transpires. The bankers know they have to keep the people shocked "deer in headlights" so they will accelerate. I think 2009 will see vicious inflation, then a further deeper crash at some point. I really don't know how long the Comex can stay live or the fiat system. Capital controls likely as the Tbonds fall off a cliff as inflation pumps again.



I think these will be very helpful for those who want to use the coming digital silver system mobile and anonymously, as well this a great way to have internet on the go, Skype free ($4 monthly flat fee to normal phones) calling, email, etc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N810 (open source Linux OS, so it can be tweaked in future, Mozilla browser)
http://www.pocketables.net/2008/02/review-nokia-n8.html
http://tabletschool.blogspot.com/2008/02/nokia-n800-n810-how-to-save-battery.html (or just buy a 2nd battery)

The slide out keyboard, Linux OS, and WiFi is what makes it different than most the other portable devices. I think the iPhone also has WiFi, but can not run all the same programs and has a lower quality screen and no physical keyboard:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone#Internet_connectivity (proprietary OS, Safari browser)

On both, I think you can also connect a (collapseable to wallet size) full size keyboard.

Or a mini-notebook for about same price (can't fit in your pocket):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASUS_Eee_PC

Interesting, cheap homebrew way to get up to 3 - 5Km line-of-sight distance on your WiFi:

http://www.instructables.com/id/%22Poorman_s-WiFi%22--USB-adapters-&-DIY-cookware-refl/

P.S. WiFi being "man-in-middle" insecure, is not a problem if you use https websites, PGP or for the anonymous P2P I laid out in this thread. Remember the entire internet is "man-in-middle" insecure, so that is really not a valid complaint against WiFi. It just so happens to be easier for average people to intercept WiFi, but experts and govt can intercept all internet traffic. So secure encryption is needed. This is why "https" in the browser needs "certificate authority" to be sure the initial public key has been exchanged with the desired server (site) and not with a "man-in-middle". So WiFi is at no disadvantage. I have not researched whether it is possible for the govt to hijack the "certificate authority", but I would presume yes. Thus "https" is in theory not secure against the govt, but PGP and my proposed anonymous P2P should be.

I have spent a lot of time thinking, and I realize there is no way to beat the plans of the bankers for world domination. There is NOTHING we can do on a global nor national scale. We are wasting our time. The first step for us to have success, is for us to admit this futility, so that we can focus like a laserbeam on what is possible. I will not explain all my logic to you, just trust me, I have really explored every angle and possibility.

The only realistic thing we can do is join together to produce goods & services amongst our group, and trade with each other. To facilitate this trade over time, diversity of goods & services, and distance, we should have a digital means of trading our gold & silver. I can help on this aspect. I can build a system that groups can use amongst themselves. So if I build a group using this financial trading system, then others can use my same digital trading system to make their own groups of people whom they trust. Someone in the group must vault the gold & silver and then the group members trade the digital credits, and take delivery of the metal if they want to remove it from the trading system.

I want to build a group, and I will bring my silver and gold outside the USA, probably to South America in Patagonia. I might eventually have another outlet for my storage in Asia. So this means any one who uses my digital gold and silver credits will only take delivery of the metal in those locations. But you don't need to take delivery to use these credits, because if we have enough members in our group, then you can spend the credits for what you need and want.

Who is will to join my group? I need to hear from you either in this forum or private email (you can find my email at goldwetrust.com). Don't worry I will make this forum private soon, so that your posts are not visible publicly.

We need people who can produce goods and services for our group. Who knows how to fix engines? Who has a machine shop? Who knows how to produce food and meat? Who can produce ethanol and/or biodiesel? Who is a pilot with a small plane? Etc..

One problem we have is economy-of-scale. Thus it might be best to locate communities which already have some amount of barter trade, and then expand the financial trading from there. Seems to me that perhaps Argentina farms are already using barter? Or are those all "for export" cash crops economy?

We really need to get busy now preparing. If you are going to stay in USA and avoid the coming "must have a number to buy and sell" system, then you need to get busy formulating your group. Physical trading of gold & silver coins will work somewhat in your group, but a digital trading would be a lot safer, more efficient, more exact "grams", and widen your system over time, distance, etc going forward.

Eventually these groups can trade with each other. We can develop a parallel economy outside the main fiat "666" economy. I am willing to program the anonymous trading systems we need. Even we members might know each other, the govt won't be able to track our trades in the system if I design it. Sure we could just trade physically, and we will do that sometimes, but sometimes that puts many limitations on us. It also means when we travel, the govt can "search & seizure".

What I need to know now, is who here among us is serious about getting out of the fiat system and making the necessary sacrifices and adjustments?

There are those of you who will stay in the system of the bankers. You will continue to speculate on mining stocks, you will navigate in that direction. I wish you good luck and best. That is not for me. I want to get entirely out of their system. I want to produce in my own, even if it means I lose many modern conveniences and eat lots of simple foods. Given enough members, there is no reason we can't prosper and be more wealthy and have more modern things than everyone else.

Who is serious? Let me hear from you now please.

I am talking about a financial union, not a political or religious one. We should all have our 100% freedom. I am only talking about creating our own economy for producing what we need and trading without the govt in our business life. You can still do things in the main economy. It is not a either/or proposition. But I think we will be most successful, to the extent we seriously try to produce in an alternative economy that using no debt and a gold & silver money. In a way, you have to be Christian to do this, because it will require a humble ambition and lifestyle.

I need a few good men. Are there any out there?



====
ADD: with regard to producing ethanol/bio-diesel, in Brazil all vehicles will run on this. One could produce food crops, then only convert to fuel when the price is attractive, otherwise sell the food crops as food. There are ways of strategizing. We would discuss such in our groups. In Brazil, ethanol is legal and in USA an ethanol distiller will get you in jail. Where would you rather live?


Add#2: just got off the phone with me long-time friend in South American, who is only 28 years old but got the correct head on his shoulders. South America has a future. We need young people who want to do it the right way. I know most of you are old and set in your ways and in your location. There are communities in USA, seek them out. If you want to go for a dynamic group, consider joining mine. I want to build a business group. Realize the Chinese do not trade through banks, they have their own groups. We Americans are so stupid.

Shelby,
For a man who believes in God, you sure don't leave Him much room to work!

I disagree with your assertion that there's nothing we can do; that EVIL can prevail of GOOD indefinitely with no consequense. I propose you RE-think, long and hard. They survive on confidence of the populace. The populace is waking up and you want to fold?

Any way, Merry CHISTMAS, on the eve of our celebrating the birth of Christ!

Hi,


I think So. America and particular Argentina is a good idea ..out of the path of anglo-euro-asia politics etc. I would join a group that has a good foundation there. Cordobia , might be an alternative is a nice small-ish city I have heard. I have farming experience,teaching and some business background. I plan to have an alternative lifestyle on board a live-aboard yacht as a way to travel and filled with enough storeable food for a small group of people.

One ? i have is how to exchange the gold-silver we have and/or credits for for stuff if gold is nationalized.Will we always be at risk of ilegal activity.

any thoughts?!!!


Sterlingold